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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old August 15 2013, 05:27 PM   #61
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
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...When has a popular media franchise EVER gone back to a discarded continuity after rebooting itself? I mean, does anybody expect the Batman movies to go back to the Burton/Schumacher timeline now that Nolan's trilogy is over? Or maybe even back to the Adam West era?

That's not how it works.
Batman & Robin (may it rest in peace) was a reboot of the Adam West style of Batman. They tried to reboot Hulk (it wasn't the bomb, it was his DAD1?1) but they discarded that idea to reboot the tv show Incredible Hulk, and Star Wars, not just 1-3 which doesn't really count as a reboot but all the old republic books and games, isn't going to stop 7, 8, and 9 from being made.

And that argument that Nemesis killed prime trek is weak. All of the TOS movies weren't blockbusters but TNG was still made.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Those movies may have drawn inspiration from the earlier TV versions, but they weren't literally set back in the old timelines. Ed Norton wasn't playing "David Banner" and, of course, the character of Betty Ross was never part of the old HULK television series.

Similarly, BATMAN & ROBIN may have been trying to ape the style of the Adam West series, but it was still set squarely in the then-current movie timeline . . . as demonstrated by the fact that Batgirl was depicted as Alfred's niece, NOT Commissioner Gordon's daughter as in the 1960s TV series.

In the neither case, did the franchise restore the old continuity.
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Old August 15 2013, 05:47 PM   #62
bbjeg
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
...
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Those movies may have drawn inspiration from the earlier TV versions, but they weren't literally set back in the old timelines. Ed Norton wasn't playing "David Banner"...

The Incredible Hulk paid homage to the original series by giving Bruce the alias of David. Betty was added but that's the power of a reboot.
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Old August 15 2013, 05:53 PM   #63
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
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...
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Those movies may have drawn inspiration from the earlier TV versions, but they weren't literally set back in the old timelines. Ed Norton wasn't playing "David Banner"...

The Incredible Hulk paid homage to the original series by giving Bruce the alias of David. Betty was added but that's the power of a reboot.
Exactly, it was a homage, but it was still a reboot. They didn't literally pick up where the old shows left off and restore the old continuity--like some people want Trek to do.

Or, to put it another way, neither THE INCREDIBLE HULK or BATMAN & ROBIN were meant to be continuations of the old TV shows. They were new versions that lifted elements from previous iterations--as remakes and reboots have always done.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:02 PM   #64
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post

And that argument that Nemesis killed prime trek is weak. All of the TOS movies weren't blockbusters but TNG was still made.
Nemesis got beaten its opening weekend by a Jennifer Lopez Rom-com. Between it and "Enterprise", they slammed the door on that version of Trek's universe. No one was watching and no one cared by that point except the hardest of hardcore fans.

Who exactly is going to spend $100-$200 million dollars and tie themselves to a continuity that hasn't been touched in nearly a decade and tying their own hands in the process?
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Old August 15 2013, 06:12 PM   #65
bbjeg
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
...Who exactly is going to spend $100-$200 million dollars and tie themselves to a continuity that hasn't been touched in nearly a decade and tying their own hands in the process?
Have you seen Star Wars 1-3? Even the reboot of TOS can fall into that category.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:23 PM   #66
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Have you seen Star Wars 1-3?
Yeah, I have and they aren't very good. But the business model is different as Lucas owned all of Star Wars and could tell whatever story he wanted. Also, there were people who wanted more Star Wars. The same can't be said about Star Trek circa 2007 when J.J. Abrams came aboard, it was dead and I've yet to see anyone provide concrete evidence that anyone outside a few die-hards want the prime timeline back.

I can guarantee that Disney and Abrams aren't going to let minor details from episodes one thru six derail the stories they want to tell in episodes seven thru nine.

Even the reboot of TOS can fall into that category.
Yes and no.

They used time-travel to say "yes, the prime continuity is still there" but we're going to do whatever we want and it doesn't contradict anything. Hence, the reason many people refer to the films as a soft-reboot of the franchise.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:26 PM   #67
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

When TNG first started they were worried about having too many references or mentions of the old show, because they wanted TNG to stand alone as its own show.

Any new series or movie could be in the prime universe without really having tied or weighted down.

It would just be something new.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:33 PM   #68
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Beyerstein wrote: View Post
When TNG first started they were worried about having too many references or mentions of the old show, because they wanted TNG to stand alone as its own show.

Any new series or movie could be in the prime universe without really having tied or weighted down.

It would just be something new.
But it wouldn't really be new and no matter how hard they tried, they would invariably make a misstep in regards to background that would conflict with one of the already existing series. Then the fans would be storming the proverbial castle about how they weren't doing their research and how could they get something so simple wrong.

All you have to do is take a gander at this very board while Enterprise was on the air.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:35 PM   #69
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
There are always going to be fans of the prime universe who want it back because they were here first and carried the torch for over 40 years, immersing themselves in various aspects of it, buying merchandise, etc. Quite a few grew up with it.

But I think the majority of people don't care what universe Trek is as long as it entertains them. In that capacity, they have no more preference to the Abramsverse than they do to the prime universe and would be totally okay if Trek was all rebooted again in several years.

Agree.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:39 PM   #70
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Beyerstein wrote: View Post
When TNG first started they were worried about having too many references or mentions of the old show, because they wanted TNG to stand alone as its own show.

Any new series or movie could be in the prime universe without really having tied or weighted down.

It would just be something new.
But it wouldn't really be new and no matter how hard they tried, they would invariably make a misstep in regards to background that would conflict with one of the already existing series. Then the fans would be storming the proverbial castle about how they weren't doing their research and how could they get something so simple wrong.

All you have to do is take a gander at this very board while Enterprise was on the air.
CBS could give a shit if fans aren't happy because they said the Eugenics War started in 1776 if the ratings are there.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:44 PM   #71
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Beyerstein wrote: View Post
When TNG first started they were worried about having too many references or mentions of the old show, because they wanted TNG to stand alone as its own show.

Any new series or movie could be in the prime universe without really having tied or weighted down.

It would just be something new.
But it wouldn't really be new and no matter how hard they tried, they would invariably make a misstep in regards to background that would conflict with one of the already existing series. Then the fans would be storming the proverbial castle about how they weren't doing their research and how could they get something so simple wrong.

All you have to do is take a gander at this very board while Enterprise was on the air.
I like to think of it as pulling off the bandage with one swift motion rather than dragging it out with lots of tiny little ouches.

Better to reboot the continuity in one fell swoop than deal with years of fannish nitpicking and outrage over "canon violations."

(At this point I could gladly go my entire life without hearing the word "canon" again!)
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Old August 15 2013, 06:46 PM   #72
C.E. Evans
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Beyerstein wrote: View Post
When TNG first started they were worried about having too many references or mentions of the old show, because they wanted TNG to stand alone as its own show.

Any new series or movie could be in the prime universe without really having tied or weighted down.

It would just be something new.
Quoted for ever lovin' truth.

Of the four Trek shows that followed TOS, only ENT really had to deal with the minutiae of Trek continuity by its very premise of being a prequel. The other shows didn't really reference other shows all that much and often limited it when they did to brief namedropping--little more than Easter eggs--in a small number of episodes.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:48 PM   #73
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Tracer Bullet wrote: View Post

CBS could give a shit if fans aren't happy because they said the Eugenics War started in 1776 if the ratings are there.
You're right of course.

But this is my point: going back to the prime timeline offers you nothing in the way of promotion or ratings. It puts the show in a box creatively. So why cause your show-runners unnecessary trouble by putting them in that situation?

I think that if Trek ever makes it back to TV, they'll reboot again. That way any potential show-runners will be able to cherry pick the elements that they feel are useful to the new show and dump the rest.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:50 PM   #74
Hober Mallow
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Eventually, I think, the Berman-era Trek spinoffs are going to be forgotten, and thought of as no more an important part of Star Trek than the animated series SHERLOCK HOLMES IN THE 22ND CENTURY has to do with the original Arthur Conan Doyle stories -- just derivative material created mostly by other people.
R. Star wrote: View Post
Four hours of NuTrek invalidating 21 seasons and 4 movies of the TNG/DS9/VOY era? Not anytime soon. But in another four, five years or so, it should be six hours.
I didn't say anything about nuTrek. Berman-era Trek is going to be mostly forgotten by the general public simply because it's derivative work created by other people.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Take the characters, rewrite them as you please, cherry pick the elements from the setting you want, mix it up in a blender and come out with "new" material. Just seems like lack of imagination to me.
This is why I loathe reboots. The best recent example I can think of for TV shows is nuBSG. I really did try to watch it. But less than halfway through the very first episode, I turned the TV off in sheer disgust. And I did watch the first Abrams nuTrek movie... and hated it. This isn't real Star Trek. It's some drivel that stole bits of Star Trek and calls itself Star Trek, but it's just an unimaginative rip-off by a lazy filmmaker with $$$$ signs in his eyes and zero respect for the fans.
Did you hate nuBSG and nuTrek simply because they were reboots? So you'd hate a reboot no matter what? Or is there a chance you'd like a reboot done well? I can't tell your position based on the above quote.

I don't like the Abrams Trek movies, but it's not because it's a reboot. I'm all for someone doing a really good reboot.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:57 PM   #75
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Well, I disagree with that. That's essentially what Star Trek is. The key to not making it into a predictable formula is not to rely solely on that. If you look at TOS and TNG, they were able to tell a variety of different stories within the scope of their basic premises.
This is one of those times where Star Trek is...whatever the viewer says it is. To you that is all Star Trek is about. To me, it's about a lot more.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I have to disagree with this too. The popularity of procedural shows really proves that stories that can be told in just one episode are still...well, popular. But as subsequent shows after TOS did, they had a mix of standalone and multi-episode stories to varying degrees--as well as a connection or overreaching background story between the first and last episodes--and I think that's the format any new Trek series should continue.
DS9 and ENT were the only ones to really have multi-episode stories. TNG and VOY didn't really. They had two parters or they'd RARELY revisit old plot threads (the Klingons), but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I'm for how BSG did it. An overarching story, but with some stand alones every now and again.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I don't think that was lost, truth be told. If anything, it was taken to extremes in VOY.
Not really. There was nothing unique about the Delta Quadrant that couldn't be found in the Alpha. Same bumpy headed aliens with the same looking ships (which also had cloaks). Random anomaly. etc. The only "unique" thing was maybe Species 8472 and they weren't even from the Delta Quadrant. How was it unique and alien?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It didn't to me. There was nothing really familiar--much less like the Alpha Quadrant--in the Delta Quadrant other than the Borg threatening to assimilate people and entire worlds. Sometimes VOY had to invent excuses (usually via a holodeck) to bring more Alpha Quadrant aspects into it.
I don't mean Alpha Quadrant as in Klingons or Starfleet Academy or something. I meant, the area of space looked generic like anything else you'd find in the Alpha Quadrant.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Sure, they did. They enabled us to see other Starfleet ships and outposts, Federation worlds and colonies.
That isn't their society. It's just other ships and planets. When I said society, I mean actually showing us life on Earth. To show us where our heroes came from. Not just showing them docking with Earth Space dock.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
You probably didn't, because I wasn't talking about stories about life on Earth, but just stories other than exploring or meeting new aliens. TOS and TNG frequently did this.
"frequently"? Not really. From time to time. Yeah.

The problem with today's Trek, I sincerely believe, is that it isn't even really trying any more. It's simply decided, here's another "superhero franchise" where we assemble the familiar cast of multi-colored shirts, the usual list of villains (whether it's Khan or Mr. Mxyzptlk doesn't really matter much), and we make spaceships go foom and boom. So when folks say they want "the Prime Universe" back, I believe they're really crying out for the days when at least somebody tried to tell a quality story.
Exactly!
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