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Old August 15 2013, 01:45 PM   #1
KaraBear
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common misconceptions about Voyager

this could be fun....

On the many boards that I've been part of, I've noticed that peole have a lot of assumptions about voyager that, when you actually sit and watch the show aren't true.

For instance, Voyager used too much time travel. Well if you look at the other series, TOS had 5 time travel episodes in their three year run, TNG had 12, DS9 had 11, Voyager had 12, and ENT had 9 in their four years. So really Voyager didn't have too many time travel episodes, they were pretty much the same as TNG and DS9. If you average it out it was actually Enterprise that had the most time travel.

Another one I've encountered a lot is that Janeway breaks the prime directive a lot. On Memory Alpha there is a list of events that were either identified at the time as violations of, or could appear to have potentially been violations of, the Prime Directive
TOS
  1. Friday's Child
  2. Mirror Mirror
  3. A Taste of Armageddon
  4. Miri
  5. Rturn of the Archons
  6. The Apple
  7. Patterns of Force
  8. A Private Little War
  9. The Omega Glory
  10. The Paradise Syndrome
  11. Bread and Circuses
TNG
  1. Pen Pals
  2. Who Watches the Watchers
  3. Home World
  4. Too Short a Season
  5. Justice
  6. Coming of Age
DS9
  1. Captive Persuit
  2. Battle Lines
  3. In the Pale Moonlight
  4. Tacking into the Wind
VOY
  1. Caretaker
  2. Time and Again
  3. Prototype
  4. Thirty Days


Anyone else encountered any misconceptions?
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Old August 15 2013, 02:07 PM   #2
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

^The PD was broken more than that on Voyager
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Old August 15 2013, 02:11 PM   #3
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Finn wrote: View Post
^The PD was broken more than that on Voyager
not according to memory alpha

but where else do you think it was broken
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Old August 15 2013, 03:01 PM   #4
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Memory Alpha is not official, it's just impressive.

The official stuff is shite compared to Memory Alpha though.

Although have you compared Memory Alpha to Memory Beta?

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
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Old August 15 2013, 03:14 PM   #5
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Plenty of episodes have some form of time travel but I think there's a difference between that and an episode being about time travel. In that sense Voyager probably has more time travel episodes. No one remembers episodes like Captains Holiday as being about time travel despite it having people from the future.
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Old August 15 2013, 03:16 PM   #6
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Memory Alpha is not official, it's just impressive.

The official stuff is shite compared to Memory Alpha though.

Although have you compared Memory Alpha to Memory Beta?

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
memory beta is about the novels, so it doesn't really apply here
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Old August 15 2013, 03:19 PM   #7
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

GameOn wrote: View Post
Plenty of episodes have some form of time travel but I think there's a difference between that and an episode being about time travel. In that sense Voyager probably has more time travel episodes. No one remembers episodes like Captains Holiday as being about time travel despite it having people from the future.
can you name any episodes that you think have time travel in them, what do you think should be on the list

the list that is on Memory Alpha is this
  • Parallax
  • Time and Again
  • Eye of the Needle
  • Death Wish
  • Future's End I
  • Future's End II
  • Before and After
  • Timeless
  • Relativity
  • Fury
  • Shattered
  • Endgame
What do you think should be added
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Old August 15 2013, 03:49 PM   #8
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Off the cuff?

(Breaking the Prime Directive means that you are altering the balance of power or altering the development/evolution of a species by giving them information or technology which they are not ready for... Agreed?)

The Next Emanation. Kim is screaming as loud as he can "Your religion is stupid and make believe and you should quit it!" And that was to a prewarp civilization who thought he was a god.

False profits. The Ferengi say you have to send us back, or you've broken your Precious Prime Directive after those silly savages think that their gods have abandoned them. Suck it Hewman.

Jetrel. A war criminal who makes WMD for a living asks how Voyager's transporter works, and Kathryn pops the hood so he can get a good look.

State of Flux. Neelix asks why he should care if the kazon get hold of something as trivial as a transporter, and then Kathryn explains to him the balance of power and how that simple tool could cause empires to rise and fall if it afforded one side a significant tactical advantage the other did not, and that it was their highest law to make sure that idiot child races don't get an unfair leg up they have not earned.

Basics. Forced to share a planet with cavemen, Janeway is sharpening spears to murder them all, so that she can sleep soundly on a Golgotha of her own making.

Swarm. Aliens tell her to fuck off or they will kill her. Neelix agrees that he's heard about the corpses these people make when you cross their borders, and they you don't #### with them. So after she shits on their sovereign rights to govern their own space, she kills thousands of indigenousness soldiers trying to defend their homeland from a scurvy alien threat because they don't believe that she's as nice as she insists she is.

The Chute. Same deal as 30 days. You break alien laws you go to alien prison.

Distant Origin. Janeway wanted to derail 20 million years of history by existing. Religious fervour insisted that she be burnt and flushed to protect the sincerity of their reptile religion.

The Omega Directive. Aliens called her an asshole for not having any rules to curb her behaviour, like the Prime Directive, which had been rescinded for that particular mission because the fate of the entire galaxy to enjoy warp travel trumps the fate of any one's planets right to be a dick.

Demon. Caretaker wanted her baby, she said no. Q wanted her baby she said no. But these quicksilver SOBs ask for her DNA and she just bends over so that they can experience a radical fit of forced evolution that would never have taken place without her involvement... Although if the rest of the crew had not submitted, just imagine... If half the trillion trillion tons of Quicksilver on the Demon world turned into a googleplex Harrys and the other half turned into a similar numebr of Toms?

Think Tank. She gave slip stream technology to a terrible asshole who was going to use it to screw over a ridiculous amount of people. Trading technology to non proved species alters their technological development, even though she admitted in Flesh and Blood is that all they did was trade replicator technology for EVERYTHING they needed from anyone they met.

Dragons Teeth. They woke up all the Vadwaar, when it would have been more easier to put the one Vadwaar Seven woke up back to sleep. Janeway said that the rules were to keep them asleep, which means that she pussied out when she should have told the first guy that he shouldn't be awake and his well armed army should most definitely not also wake up either and she need amend Seven's blunder.

Memorial. She repaired the broken rape machine so that generation as yet unborn could continue to be raped for the next thousand years whether they wanted to be raped or not.

Flesh and Blood. Janeway gave away advanced technology that the hirogen used to save their species from extinction, by creating a slave race they could torture communally who were too powerful and threatened to destroy the Hirogen quicklier than the first extinction which they feared which put Janeway into the position that she felt compelled to act genocidally and destroy all the hirogenmade Holograms. This is about Janeway having children again if you didn't notice.

Friendship One... They fixed a biosphere on a planet full of assholes who killed Joe. They were stupid enough to destroy their biosphere once, so they'll do it again, Janeway broke the Prime Directive prolonging their death rattle just because she felt responsible since humans handed them the technology that destroyed their biosphere and they were too fricking weak to say "no".
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Old August 15 2013, 04:28 PM   #9
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Off the cuff?

(Breaking the Prime Directive means that you are altering the balance of power or altering the development/evolution of a species by giving them information or technology which they are not ready for... Agreed?)
in a prewarp civilization yes, in a warp capable species it's not as cut and dry

The Next Emanation. Kim is screaming as loud as he can "Your religion is stupid and make believe and you should quit it!" And that was to a prewarp civilization who thought he was a god.
if by screaming as loud as he could you mean quietly discussing it with one guy who didn't want to go through with the death anyway

False profits. The Ferengi say you have to send us back, or you've broken your Precious Prime Directive after those silly savages think that their gods have abandoned them. Suck it Hewman.
the Ferengi are the ones who would have broken the prime directive by taking advantage of the aliens. Janeway was trying to remove them from the planet in a way that was consistent with the alien culture

Jetrel. A war criminal who makes WMD for a living asks how Voyager's transporter works, and Kathryn pops the hood so he can get a good look.
He took it upon himself to study the transporter and had come up with a way to use them before he mentioned anything to janeway, he showed her the modificatins he thought would need to be made to get a samle of the cloud on Rinax. Janeway had B'elanna make the temorary modifications he sugested.

State of Flux. Neelix asks why he should care if the kazon get hold of something as trivial as a transporter, and then Kathryn explains to him the balance of power and how that simple tool could cause empires to rise and fall if it afforded one side a significant tactical advantage the other did not, and that it was their highest law to make sure that idiot child races don't get an unfair leg up they have not earned.
where is the prime directive broken here?

Basics. Forced to share a planet with cavemen, Janeway is sharpening spears to murder them all, so that she can sleep soundly on a Golgotha of her own making.
come on now she had no intention of going after the cavemen. They needed weapons to hunt for food and for self defense

Swarm. Aliens tell her to fuck off or they will kill her. Neelix agrees that he's heard about the corpses these people make when you cross their borders, and they you don't #### with them. So after she shits on their sovereign rights to govern their own space, she kills thousands of indigenousness soldiers trying to defend their homeland from a scurvy alien threat because they don't believe that she's as nice as she insists she is.
the swarm aliens attack first, they fire on Paris and Torres in the shuttle, and they were essentially cloaked while going through their space so they wouldn't interfere

The Chute. Same deal as 30 days. You break alien laws you go to alien prison.
they DIDN'T break any laws, they were framed by a terrorist group

Distant Origin. Janeway wanted to derail 20 million years of history by existing. Religious fervour insisted that she be burnt and flushed to protect the sincerity of their reptile religion.
simply existing doesn't break the prime directive, this one is a serious reach

The Omega Directive. Aliens called her an asshole for not having any rules to curb her behaviour, like the Prime Directive, which had been rescinded for that particular mission because the fate of the entire galaxy to enjoy warp travel trumps the fate of any one's planets right to be a dick.
this episode doesn't count at all since the prime directive is rescinded

Demon. Caretaker wanted her baby, she said no. Q wanted her baby she said no. But these quicksilver SOBs ask for her DNA and she just bends over so that they can experience a radical fit of forced evolution that would never have taken place without her involvement... Although if the rest of the crew had not submitted, just imagine... If half the trillion trillion tons of Quicksilver on the Demon world turned into a googleplex Harrys and the other half turned into a similar numebr of Toms?
they had alraedy encountered human dna before janeway agreed to let the crew be copied

Think Tank. She gave slip stream technology to a terrible asshole who was going to use it to screw over a ridiculous amount of people. Trading technology to non proved species alters their technological development, even though she admitted in Flesh and Blood is that all they did was trade replicator technology for EVERYTHING they needed from anyone they met.
how did she give slip stream technlogy when they didn't have that technlogy?

Dragons Teeth. They woke up all the Vadwaar, when it would have been more easier to put the one Vadwaar Seven woke up back to sleep. Janeway said that the rules were to keep them asleep, which means that she pussied out when she should have told the first guy that he shouldn't be awake and his well armed army should most definitely not also wake up either and she need amend Seven's blunder.
this one could be a breach, but it was Seven who did it, not janeway

Memorial. She repaired the broken rape machine so that generation as yet unborn could continue to be raped for the next thousand years whether they wanted to be raped or not.
she repaired the machine so people in the future WOULDN'T go through what they did.

Flesh and Blood. Janeway gave away advanced technology that the hirogen used to save their species from extinction, by creating a slave race they could torture communally who were too powerful and threatened to destroy the Hirogen quicklier than the first extinction which they feared which put Janeway into the position that she felt compelled to act genocidally and destroy all the hirogenmade Holograms. This is about Janeway having children again if you didn't notice.
The hirogen were not on the verge of extinction. When they took over voyager they had already examined and picked apart every system on voyager, they would have taken the holodec technology anyway

Friendship One... They fixed a biosphere on a planet full of assholes who killed Joe. They were stupid enough to destroy their biosphere once, so they'll do it again, Janeway broke the Prime Directive prolonging their death rattle just because she felt responsible since humans handed them the technology that destroyed their biosphere and they were too fricking weak to say "no".
she was following a direct order from starfleet
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Old August 15 2013, 04:30 PM   #10
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
can you name any episodes that you think have time travel in them, what do you think should be on the list
When people talk about time travel episodes they're usually referring to episodes where main characters travel through time and/or attempt to alter/restore history. I wouldn't add anything to the list but I'd remove Parallax, Death Wish and Eye of the Needle because they're not really about time travel. If you did the same for other shows you'd probably end up with slightly shorter lists. People also remember time travel being a cliché of Voyager because it'd already been done so many time before in other series and movies by that point.
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Old August 15 2013, 04:58 PM   #11
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Misconception: Jeri Ryan took over the starring role from Kate Mulgrew and got more screen time than Kate during the last 4 years of the show.

Evil bitch that she is.

Except that... it's not true. Count the scenes, count the lines. Kate still has the most.
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Old August 15 2013, 05:01 PM   #12
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
Misconception: Jeri Ryan took over the starring role from Kate Mulgrew and got more screen time than Kate during the last 4 years of the show.

Evil bitch that she is.

Except that... it's not true. Count the scenes, count the lines. Kate still has the most.
That's a good one. I came across a site once that broke down the lines by character for each episode and then totalled them by season. Kate always had the most, and Beltran was usually second
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Old August 15 2013, 05:34 PM   #13
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Off the cuff?

(Breaking the Prime Directive means that you are altering the balance of power or altering the development/evolution of a species by giving them information or technology which they are not ready for... Agreed?)
in a prewarp civilization yes, in a warp capable species it's not as cut and dry
You say that prototype is a Prime Directive Episode. Janeway bleats that B'Elanna is in danger of breaking the Prime Directive and she'd best back the frakk up.

You'll notice that the alien robots in question who B'Elanna was in danger or breaching the Prime Directive Rights of, despite their procreative limitations possessed a greater military technology than Starfleet and was kicking Voyager's ass?

KaraBear wrote: View Post

The Next Emanation. Kim is screaming as loud as he can "Your religion is stupid and make believe and you should quit it!" And that was to a prewarp civilization who thought he was a god.
if by screaming as loud as he could you mean quietly discussing it with one guy who didn't want to go through with the death anyway
His voice carries.

There was zero censorship.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

The Ferengi are the ones who would have broken the prime directive by taking advantage of the aliens. Janeway was trying to remove them from the planet in a way that was consistent with the alien culture
The Ferengi are not bound to Federation laws unless they are in Federation space.

Look at the script.

Janeway said "you are right, and I am wrong. Sorry, you may return to the planet to molest those aliens all you like. Sorry for inconveniencing you. Goodbye."

And then she spends the next 20 minutes trying to screw the ferengi for screwing her by outloopholing the Prime Directive more deviously than they did... She used the Prime Directive like a balloon in the hands of a drunk clown.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

He took it upon himself to study the transporter and had come up with a way to use them before he mentioned anything to janeway, he showed her the modificatins he thought would need to be made to get a samle of the cloud on Rinax. Janeway had B'elanna make the temorary modifications he sugested.
And now he can make transporters.

The doctor should have fried his brain and removed the last week of memories.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

where is the prime directive broken here?
It wasn't. This is one of the few times that Janeway is awsome and respects the Prime Directive. It gave me hope for what the next 5 years might have been.

KaraBear wrote: View Post
come on now she had no intention of going after the cavemen. They needed weapons to hunt for food and for self defense
Just to remind you of the timeline... They broke into her camp and stole Kes.

As far as Kathryn knew, Kes was being spit roasted over an open flame.

Yes, they were literally making spears, and the natives had exacted an act of war.

If Chakotay hadn't rescued that alien princess from a lava flow, Janeway would have been forced to kill them all to shut her pride up.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

The swarm aliens attack first, they fire on Paris and Torres in the shuttle, and they were essentially cloaked while going through their space so they wouldn't interfere
The Swarm gave a warning shot.

That was the polite thing to do.

How do you think the Federation treats cloaked Romulan ships sneaking though their back yard?

Essentially cloaked or not.

Besides that just means that they "essentially" broken the treaty of Algernon.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

they DIDN'T break any laws, they were framed by a terrorist group
Breaking laws has nothing to with being convicted of a crime.

KaraBear wrote: View Post
simply existing doesn't break the prime directive, this one is a serious reach
Asking not to be killed?

Politely asking not to be killed while completely at the mercy of the Voth?

Imagine you asked your government if you might not have to pay your taxes because you're lovely?

The politically inconvenient have a habit of disappearing.

I was surprised that the Voth had not sacked Earth before Voyager got home.

That would have been a fine turn of events.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

This episode doesn't count at all since the prime directive is rescinded
They're in space but they still obey the laways of gravity.

It's practically perverse how they don't float about.
KaraBear wrote: View Post

they had alraedy encountered human dna before janeway agreed to let the crew be copied
How do you calm a shitstorm down?

Add more shit?

Every human mind added to that species expanding it's identity massively.

The correct thing to do was to take the fake Harry and fake Tom with them, or kill them, or wipe their memories.

The other trillion trillion tons of quicksilver biomatter was perfectly happy and content with their/it's inert life.

Suddenly human beings are forcibly forced on them forcedly without their consent or permission... It's that thing you don't like me to talk about again.

When door knockers try to tell you about an awesome religion that will open your life up to a bright new world, isn't your first thought "go fuck yourself"?

Oh, and is it just me but every couple months does some bugger knock on your door from a different power company asking you to look at their competitive rates and sign up with them.

What right did fake Harry and fake Tom have to evolve their species?

I mean if I thought Heroin was awesome, and that you would enjoy heroin, and I didn't trust you to make up your own mind, would you thank me after I sprinkled it on your cornflakes?

KaraBear wrote: View Post

How did she give slip stream technlogy when they didn't have that technlogy?
It was %99 of Slipstream tech.

Some one cracks it and them slipstream torpedoes are fired from one planet to another light years apart in seconds through shields.

%1 shy of the intergalactic war!

KaraBear wrote: View Post
this one could be a breach, but it was Seven who did it, not janeway
Janeway didn't train Seven not to be an idiot, that's an oversight, and I clearly suggested that it was a mess Janeway could have easily clean up in the first act by putting the guy back to sleep or killing him.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

she repaired the machine so people in the future WOULDN'T go through what they did.
The machine itself wasn't that broken. It was the warning buoy which explained what was about to happen, which was missing/broken. Janeway recharged the batteries and launched a new warning buoy.

This is Caretaker all over again. She couldn't trust a timer to detonate a torpedo 10 seconds after the array threw her home again to blow up the array, but she can trust the buoy and the memorial to not start molesting passers by again for the next ten thousand years?

She shouldn't have fixed it, and she shouldn't have destroyed it, either would have altered the balance of power. She should have just let it burn itself out.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

Flesh and Blood. Janeway gave away advanced technology that the hirogen used to save their species from extinction, by creating a slave race they could torture communally who were too powerful and threatened to destroy the Hirogen quicklier than the first extinction which they feared which put Janeway into the position that she felt compelled to act genocidally and destroy all the hirogenmade Holograms. This is about Janeway having children again if you didn't notice.
The hirogen were not on the verge of extinction. When they took over voyager they had already examined and picked apart every system on voyager, they would have taken the holodec technology anyway
Voyager was turned into a holodeck because the Horgen no longer formed communities. They hunted, that's it. No planets, no space stations, no cites, no fleets, no nothing or dwindling closer to nothing with each generation. What was left unsaid is that because they didn't form communities, that their birth rates would have been for shit. but before they died out as a species they would have died out as a culture first since they don't commune.

KaraBear wrote: View Post

Friendship One... They fixed a biosphere on a planet full of assholes who killed Joe. They were stupid enough to destroy their biosphere once, so they'll do it again, Janeway broke the Prime Directive prolonging their death rattle just because she felt responsible since humans handed them the technology that destroyed their biosphere and they were too fricking weak to say "no".
she was following a direct order from starfleet
The very definition of an illegal order.

Was the order to get the probe or save the planet the probe fucked up?
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Old August 15 2013, 05:39 PM   #14
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

I think you're twisting a lot of things and making a lot of assumptions
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Old August 15 2013, 06:11 PM   #15
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

No more than you are.
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