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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 13 2013, 10:55 PM   #31
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Actually, we found out in Enterprise that Starfleet had first contact with the Borg in the 22nd century. Technically, Starfleet have started running into their advanced scouts ten years before Kelvin was destroyed.

Or... maybe they DID? If we needed a name for the blue pulse weapons the Kelvin fires at the Narada, what fits better than "antimatter spreads?"
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Old August 14 2013, 02:57 AM   #32
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Romulans would be more of a threat than ever before. Do consider that they are a aggressive arrogant race to begin with: when word has reached their planet that their sun is going to go super nova, the campaign for expansion has switched from ego tripping careers to a necessity for survival of the Romulan Empire.
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Old August 14 2013, 03:28 PM   #33
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Enow wrote: View Post
Romulans would be more of a threat than ever before. Do consider that they are a aggressive arrogant race to begin with: when word has reached their planet that their sun is going to go super nova, the campaign for expansion has switched from ego tripping careers to a necessity for survival of the Romulan Empire.
I'm still kind of dumbfounded as to why STID completely shelved the Romulans even though all the problems in this movie was a direct response to a catastrophic Romulan attack. I know Nero said he didn't speak for the Empire, but the Klingons have never destroyed an entire planet before, and they were also attacked by the Romulans in the same movie. So to shift the focus to the Klingons and ONLY the Klingons seems really out of place.
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Old August 14 2013, 03:52 PM   #34
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Enow wrote: View Post
Romulans would be more of a threat than ever before. Do consider that they are a aggressive arrogant race to begin with: when word has reached their planet that their sun is going to go super nova, the campaign for expansion has switched from ego tripping careers to a necessity for survival of the Romulan Empire.
I'm still kind of dumbfounded as to why STID completely shelved the Romulans even though all the problems in this movie was a direct response to a catastrophic Romulan attack. I know Nero said he didn't speak for the Empire, but the Klingons have never destroyed an entire planet before, and they were also attacked by the Romulans in the same movie. So to shift the focus to the Klingons and ONLY the Klingons seems really out of place.
On one note: The Federation is made up of different planetary alliances, so perhaps other alien cool heads has prevailed? Most likely in settling any affront to an allied planet, one should not respond in anger would be the ongoing practise in keeping the peace among themselves and not just how they will respond to an outside attack.

On the other note: I am under the impression that Klingons were a closer threat to Earth than Romulans were. Perhaps it is by proximity is how a threat is assessed as being greater?

The further the distance, even if Earth was conquered by Romulus, the greater the chances that their resources would not be able to maintain a conquered planet, and would be at risk by the native insurgents on the planet's surface as well as their supply line being open to Klingon attacks.

It would explain why Romulans have been so busy attacking the Klingon Empire so much.

Still, you would think we would hear of these skirmishes in the second movie to paint the atmosphere that the Romulans were going full tilt on this now that their solar sun will be going supernova, thus giving a hint of the 3rd movie.

But in order for the Romulans to be a threat, the Klingon Empire has to be crippled enough so Romulans can proceed to attacking the Federation, with the covetted prize being Earth.
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Old August 14 2013, 06:04 PM   #35
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Odds and ends:

Therefore, all we need is for someone from Section 31 to see a recording from the Kelvin to know who the attackers are, and then I'm sure the S31 machine cranked into high gear, gathering information on Romulan language and culture.
But why should S31 or others in the know make the information public, accessible to nobodies like Pike or Kirk? The whole idea was to keep the universe from learning that Romulans were Vulcans - wouldn't keeping this secret be more crucial now than ever before?

It's highly unlikely Ayel was speaking English at the time.
Is it? He'd know he was dealing with a Starfleet vessel, and the skippers of those speak English in his century... Showing off by speaking the opponent's language might be a typical Romulan trait.

...stemming from the attack on the Kelvin.
Why should anything stem from the attack on the Kelvin?

So a space monstrosity came and destroyed a starship. So what? That must happen every second Thursday or so. The enemy had exotic weapons, but most space monsters do. There's no particular point in analyzing the attack of a unique enemy who's not likely to be encountered ever again, and probably little chance of reaching any conclusions from such an analysis anyway.

In what way exactly did Kirk's encounter with the Space Amoeba alter Starfleet? Or with the Doomsday Machine? When we actually saw Starfleet for the first time, in the TOS movies, there was no way to tell whether it had changed or not, as there had been no good insight into Starfleet back during Kirk's original adventures. The same with any "change" between the teaser of STXI and the body of that movie.

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Old August 14 2013, 07:02 PM   #36
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote:
Why should anything stem from the attack on the Kelvin?
Because the writers say so. They even went so far as to have the front for the Section 31 base beneath London called the "Kelvin Memorial Archive". Khan's premature resurrection stems directly from the destruction of Vulcan. It's all intended to be Butterfly Effect repurcussions of Nero's arrival in 2233.
So a space monstrosity came and destroyed a starship. So what? That must happen every second Thursday or so.
It happened a lot in TOS, but this is a pre-TOS AU. The death of one (ship) is a tragedy, the death of millions (well, at least half of the TOS Connie fleet) is just a statistic.
In what way exactly did Kirk's encounter with the Space Amoeba alter Starfleet? Or with the Doomsday Machine?
Perhaps the refit into an "almost totally new" and more powerful Enterprise in TMP? Or development of the USS Excelsior?
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Old August 14 2013, 07:20 PM   #37
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Because the writers say so.
Not in their writing, no. Nowhere in ST:ID does anybody suggest that Nero even existed, let alone had an influence on Starfleet thinking.

Certainly there's no suggestion that Nero's antics would have had any effect before he destroyed Vulcan - say, making Starfleet build a bigger and badder Enterprise. (And the Vengeance doesn't appear to be all that much newer.)

They even went so far as to have the front for the Section 31 base beneath London called the "Kelvin Memorial Archive".
Quite so. And the idea was that this should look like the least significant thing on planet Earth, to hide its crucial true significance. So a name referring to an irrelevant incident would fit right in.

It's all intended to be Butterfly Effect repurcussions of Nero's arrival in 2233.
It's not indicated to be that.

It happened a lot in TOS, but this is a pre-TOS AU
So Nero made all other space monsters disappear?

And while the DDM was something Starfleet might not encounter until sending ships to extreme deep space exploration missions (but in TOS, it had already sent two ships to that particular spot, and one of them made a revisit!), it was apparently headed towards shallower space; the Space Amoeba was found in shallow space, as was NOMAD.

Perhaps the refit into an "almost totally new" and more powerful Enterprise in TMP? Or development of the USS Excelsior?
That's a giant perhaps, especially considering that neither of these appeared to give Starfleet any real improvement in anti-Amoeba or anti-DDM capabilities...

Starfleet getting bigger and better ships is most probably a natural development that doesn't especially benefit from individual incidents.

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Old August 14 2013, 07:39 PM   #38
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

I think there are really two things at play here - public reaction and private reaction, and also, reaction to the Kelvin's loss versus reaction to Vulcan's loss.

I hate to play devil's advocate, but isn't the intention in ID that the Kelvin Memorial Archive is minor - and that having S31 headquarters beneath it is ironic? That's the feeling I got from it. "Why would anyone blow up the archives?" seemed to be the reaction to me. In other words, the Archive being named after the Kelvin disaster doesn't really mean anything as to how much of an impact the indicent publicly had. There could have been a Constellation or Intrepid Memorial Archive in the Primeverse.

Many, myself included, have concluded that the loss of the Kelvin had a butterfly effect on the Abramsverse, resulting in changes to the Enterprise, among other things. Does ID prove that this was the case? I'm not sure. We see that Admiral Marcus was planning a war with the Klingons, and this resulted in the Vengeance. What was the result in the Primeverse? Was Marcus similarly inclined?

In the Abramsverse, was the Vengeance an extension of a mentality that began with Kelvin, and was expanded with the loss of Vulcan? I really don't think we can decisively say. Khan says that Marcus scoured the universe looking for anything that would help him fight his war, more or less. But was it the Klingons he was really planning on fighting?
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Old August 14 2013, 07:50 PM   #39
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

We saw a Marcus in the prime universe - he just happened to be named Cartwright, and wasn't the Big Boss yet*. We got another one a century later. Starfleet probably sprouts those almost as often as it kills space monsters... And the butterfly effect just alters the names and faces.

Timo Saloniemi

* Cartwright was a five-star Admiral, too, if we trust the Fletcher scheme. But he wasn't the only one, or the first among equals. Leyton was two rungs down from there. I wonder what the top of the organization chart really looks like?
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Old August 14 2013, 08:04 PM   #40
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Nicely stated... and ye gods, I bet the org chart is top heavy.
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Old August 14 2013, 08:09 PM   #41
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Praetor wrote: View Post
Khan says that Marcus scoured the universe looking for anything that would help him fight his war, more or less. But was it the Klingons he was really planning on fighting?
Khan says that they scoured space AFTER the destruction of Vulcan, so maybe Nero was secretly a Klingon after all.
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Old August 14 2013, 08:13 PM   #42
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Thank you Jeyl, I wasn't sure whether I remembered that correctly. So Marcus is probably gunning for his war all along, but the loss of Vulcan gives him what he needs to ramp up. Makes sense.
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Old August 15 2013, 03:43 AM   #43
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Enow wrote: View Post
Romulans would be more of a threat than ever before. Do consider that they are a aggressive arrogant race to begin with: when word has reached their planet that their sun is going to go super nova, the campaign for expansion has switched from ego tripping careers to a necessity for survival of the Romulan Empire.
I'm still kind of dumbfounded as to why STID completely shelved the Romulans even though all the problems in this movie was a direct response to a catastrophic Romulan attack. I know Nero said he didn't speak for the Empire, but the Klingons have never destroyed an entire planet before, and they were also attacked by the Romulans in the same movie. So to shift the focus to the Klingons and ONLY the Klingons seems really out of place.
Because at this point in history the Klingon Empire is CONSIDERABLY more powerful than the Romulans, who never demonstrated any expansionist tendencies in TOS and were, at the time, a race of paranoid autocrats who jealously guarded their borders against any intrusion (basically, space North Korea).

Praetor wrote: View Post
Thank you Jeyl, I wasn't sure whether I remembered that correctly. So Marcus is probably gunning for his war all along, but the loss of Vulcan gives him what he needs to ramp up. Makes sense.
Makes ALOT of sense considering what a snaky bastard Marcus turned out to be; he probably got Starfleet to approve some of his weapons projects by playing the "Romulans are after us" card when he meant to use them on the Klingons all along.
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Old August 15 2013, 03:59 AM   #44
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote: View Post
Perhaps the refit into an "almost totally new" and more powerful Enterprise in TMP? Or development of the USS Excelsior?
That's a giant perhaps, especially considering that neither of these appeared to give Starfleet any real improvement in anti-Amoeba or anti-DDM capabilities...
Starfleet lost four different ships to these assorted space monsters, all for different reasons; that's quite a lot of ground to cover. One of the things that would need to be improved would be newer and more advanced science labs and equipment to help starships [tech] their way out of tight spots; better sensors, better computers, more and better specialists, better fabrication equipment and more of it.

Contrast with the reaction to the loss of the Kelvin: "It's a good thing Kelvin had an assload of warp-capable shuttles on board or else the entire crew would have been screwed... hey, let's make sure that all of our ships have room for an assload of shuttles from now on."
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Old August 15 2013, 08:30 PM   #45
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Yeah... Although that's just the sort of generic development we'd expect anyway: big shuttlebays in big ships with big guns and room for big labs.

...One thing I could see Starfleet doing as a response to the Space Amoeba is the creation of antimatter-laden flying bombs that look a bit like a big submarine flanked by two smaller ones. Not much good against a maneuvering enemy, or an enemy that can fire back, but really the perfect thing to give indigestion to a giant space mollusk that is interested in your star system in the culinary sense!

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