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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old August 12 2013, 10:37 AM   #46
Belz...
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

BillJ wrote: View Post
What stories can you tell with Captain Huge Douchebag and the U.S.S. Fanboy (NCC-2,000,000 with 15 type-MLCVII pulse phaser cannons) that you can't tell with Captain Kirk and the U.S.S. Enterprise?
What stories can you tell with Captain Kirk and the U.S.S. Enterprise that you can't tell with Captain Douchebag and the U.S.S. Fanboy?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
When I want "really new" stuff, as you put it, I don't turn to Star Trek, a nearly fifty-year-old franchise. If what you want is really new, then what would be the point of doing Star Trek at all?
Star Trek is a universe, whether you get it or not. It's bigger than just Kirk and company. Exploring universes we like by meeting other people and other situations is what makes a universe worthwhile beyond its original premise, in my opinion. DS9 is the finest example of what you can do with a universe when you break from the original boundaries. And it was awesome.
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Old August 12 2013, 10:45 AM   #47
dan_bevan
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

I think everyone has different ideas about what real star trek is. I can see a lot of people have remained extremely faithful to the TOS and as a result didn't take as well to the other incarnations of Trek. In a way a lot of viewers were determined not to like it as much as they felt nothing could compare to Kirk, Spock and co.

TOS was before my time and I grew up watching TNG. That was my Star Trek, although I went back and watched the TOS I always preferred TNG. I think people are sentimental and TNG always reminded me of my childhood, just as the older generation were sentimental of TOS.

I've watched all the rest of the Trek series and nothing compared to TNG, although they all did well in their own way and had some good episodes and also some bad episodes.

In my opinion, the thing that makes a good Trek series is the characters. TOS and TNG got the characters spot on for me which was why they were so successful and the most memorable. DS9 got some of the characters right. Voyager and Enterprise didn't get the characters quite right which was they didn't do so well.

The characters make the show and have to be likeable. The viewers have to care enough about the characters to watch and be enthralled by their adventures. The characters also have to portray humanity so that viewers can relate and see that humanity still exists in the 24th century, even the aliens of the Trek series are capable of portraying humanity.

Writers have to get the characters right first of all, that is key to the whole show. Once good characters have been written then excellent storywriting needs to be put into place. Great stories need to be told around these characters that we all love. Once these two key concepts are in place you have the basis for an excellent Star Trek. The stories need to be able to make us happy, laugh, cry, angry etc.. and without the right characters it would be hard for the stories to do this.

What century, what location and what species they encounter are not that important to the viewers as long as the characters and stories are right.
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Old August 12 2013, 02:27 PM   #48
Chemahkuu
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

dansigal wrote: View Post
There is no iconic Sherlock Holmes actor.
Wrong, there are two. Basil Rathbone and Jeremy Brett, considered the most iconic portrayels of Sherlock Holmes for decades.

The current BBC production team have even admitted to modelling the 221B set on both of their sets, from the layout of the room to the items placed in it.

Benedict Cumberbatch is well on his way to becoming the third.
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Old August 12 2013, 02:54 PM   #49
dansigal
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
dansigal wrote: View Post
There is no iconic Sherlock Holmes actor.
Wrong, there are two. Basil Rathbone and Jeremy Brett, considered the most iconic portrayels of Sherlock Holmes for decades.

The current BBC production team have even admitted to modelling the 221B set on both of their sets, from the layout of the room to the items placed in it.

Benedict Cumberbatch is well on his way to becoming the third.
I will freely admit to not knowing who either of those are, but that's probably more a reflection on me, than on how popular they are. That being said, just the fact that there's two of them (with a third on the way as you say) proves the point I'm trying to make. No matter how successful the new movies are, Shatner and Nimoy will always BE Kirk and Spock, and Pine and Quinto will always be the guys who did a very good job at portraying Kirk and Spock.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:20 PM   #50
BillJ
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Belz... wrote: View Post

Star Trek is a universe, whether you get it or not. It's bigger than just Kirk and company. Exploring universes we like by meeting other people and other situations is what makes a universe worthwhile beyond its original premise, in my opinion. DS9 is the finest example of what you can do with a universe when you break from the original boundaries. And it was awesome.
But how awesome was it to general audiences? The ones you need to draw in order to make a series viable? Deep Space Nine was where the great Trek ratings slide began. It also struggled mightily in strip syndication here in the States.

It doesn't seem like general audiences are exactly clamoring for DS9 or something like it.

dansigal wrote: View Post
No matter how successful the new movies are, Shatner and Nimoy will always BE Kirk and Spock, and Pine and Quinto will always be the guys who did a very good job at portraying Kirk and Spock.
Pine and Quinto are every bit as much Kirk and Spock as Shatner and Nimoy were and I say that as someone who started watching Star Trek in 1975. Plus, while you and I were introduced to the characters by way of a TV screen, the characters were created on the written page.

dan_bevan wrote: View Post
I think everyone has different ideas about what real star trek is.
It has nothing to do with what is "real" Star Trek. It has everything to do with what is "commercially viable" Star Trek.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:38 PM   #51
dansigal
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pine and Quinto are every bit as much Kirk and Spock as Shatner and Nimoy were and I say that as someone who started watching Star Trek in 1975. Plus, while you and I were introduced to the characters by way of a TV screen, the characters were created on the written page.
Certainly fair if that's your opinion. It also may be technically true, but we're talking about public perception, and my completely unscientific guess is that you're in a very small minority in thinking that, even among people like myself who really like the movies and are happy with Pine and Quinto in the roles. The one point I will give you is that the new movies are certainly reaching more people who aren't as familiar with the original series, and therefore for those people, you're right, Pine and Quinto are Kirk and Spock as far as they are concerned, and those people might be willing to accept yet another reboot in television form. So yeah, it might be commercially viable, but it's still going to be a hard sell to the loyal base audience who are the primary reason Trek has been around for almost 50 years and that I think they'd need for a new tv show to succeed.

And I think you know very well that my point had nothing to do with the literal first place that the characters ever appeared. They aren't literary characters that existed in books long before someone portrayed them on screen. Sure there were outlines and scripts, but they originated on screen by actors who will forever be associated with them, that's why the Sherlock comparison fails.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:54 PM   #52
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

dansigal wrote: View Post

So yeah, it might be commercially viable, but it's still going to be a hard sell to the loyal base audience who are the primary reason Trek has been around for almost 50 years and that I think they'd need for a new tv show to succeed.
The fanbase were all that was left when we got Star Trek: Nemesis and the Enterprise TV series was cancelled. New Trek cannot survive with only the fanbase watching.

Simply put, we are a dying breed from a completely different time. If Trek is too survive, it has to create new fans and its core characters offer the best chance to create new fans. Kirk and Spock are modern American mythology.

Plus, I think it is a silly proposition that we cannot tell "new" stories with Kirk and Spock. People confuse the time we've been exposed to the characters with the amount of actual live-action exposure these characters have. There's roughly one-hundred hours of Kirk and Spock vs. six-hundred hours of Modern Trek, and if ratings are any indication, the general public soured on and haven't exactly been rushing to watch.



And I think you know very well that my point had nothing to do with the literal first place that the characters ever appeared. They aren't literary characters that existed in books long before someone portrayed them on screen. Sure there were outlines and scripts, but they originated on screen by actors who will forever be associated with them, that's why the Sherlock comparison fails.
My point was is that the characters are just as much an interpretation of what was on the written page as any other literary character that has been brought to "life".
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Old August 12 2013, 06:54 PM   #53
R. Star
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Meh a new "TOS" series would be a bad idea to me. For any number of reasons. One, they wouldn't be able to afford the current cast as they're already 7 figures plus established stars now. So you'd have to recast some or all of them, which would alienate the fanbase more.

The biggest reason is, a reboot is just the ultimate lack of creativity. You take existing characters, in an existing setting, change a few details, and boom.. you have a "new" story. I'd rather see something genuinely new and original than a rehash of something that's already been done. Even the reboot, after lamely establishing the "alternate universe" in an attempt to appease the older fans, just went to that formula with the recent movie. Oh it's Khan. Wait we're probably gonna bring him back in the sequel too. Can't have Kirk and Spock facing a new villain or anything. Guess we can have Koloth and Harry Mudd in the next one. A series would invariably bring in every past villain from TOS at some point or another... the movie franchise as long as it goes is already trying to do this.

It doesn't even have to be a random group of people we don't know. Heck bring in John Cho as Captain of an Excelsior series in the rebootverse, that'd leave a lot of room for original storytelling that hasn't been done before. Or if we want to get back to the Prime universe, do a Titan series and recast Riker/Troi. You could even bring in Patrick Stewart as a guest star, "Admiral/Ambassador Picard" now and again since the man doesn't age.

You can make a connection to the past without blatantly ripping it off, mixing it up and trying to sell it as a new product. It just requires a slight amount of creativity. Even then you don't -have- to... TNG and DS9 did just fine with a new crew. a Series set in the early 25th century with Admiral Riker passing the baton might be interesting too.

But don't worry BillJ, your line of thought will probably prevail. Hollywood would rather redo something that's been done, than do something new after all. There's no risk in that.
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Old August 12 2013, 07:27 PM   #54
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Your idea is ok in itself, but the stuff about an ancient alien species periodically wiping out the galaxy is a bit too similar to the Mass Effect video game series. Also, I'm really bored of ancient, extinct alien races as a concept in scifi.
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Old August 12 2013, 09:27 PM   #55
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

BillJ wrote: View Post
It has nothing to do with what is "real" Star Trek. It has everything to do with what is "commercially viable" Star Trek.
This is the only thing Paramount/CBS cares about. Like it or not, Star Trek is a business. If it stops making money, they'll find a new cash cow.
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Old August 12 2013, 10:15 PM   #56
Hober Mallow
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Star Trek, to most people, is Kirk and Spock. It's not a question of should it or shouldn't Star Trek be rebooted. It's going to be rebooted, again and again. My hope is that it will be done right in an imaginative way.
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Old August 12 2013, 10:28 PM   #57
Avon
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

maybe you should consider creating your own original scifi universe, where you can tell the story you want without the constraint of the name 'star trek' causing problems with canon-rage and the epic quest for 'real trek'.
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Old August 12 2013, 10:45 PM   #58
BillJ
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

R. Star wrote: View Post
Can't have Kirk and Spock facing a new villain or anything. Guess we can have Koloth and Harry Mudd in the next one. A series would invariably bring in every past villain from TOS at some point or another... the movie franchise as long as it goes is already trying to do this.
Guess Nero was a re-use of a prior character...

R. Star wrote: View Post

It doesn't even have to be a random group of people we don't know. Heck bring in John Cho as Captain of an Excelsior series in the rebootverse, that'd leave a lot of room for original storytelling that hasn't been done before. Or if we want to get back to the Prime universe, do a Titan series and recast Riker/Troi. You could even bring in Patrick Stewart as a guest star, "Admiral/Ambassador Picard" now and again since the man doesn't age.

You can make a connection to the past without blatantly ripping it off, mixing it up and trying to sell it as a new product. It just requires a slight amount of creativity. Even then you don't -have- to... TNG and DS9 did just fine with a new crew. a Series set in the early 25th century with Admiral Riker passing the baton might be interesting too.
Which are all variations on a theme with re-use of already created characters. You're still bartering on Trek's past success.

Not sure why the use of Kirk and Spock in a modern series seems distasteful to some. The vast majority of material featuring the characters is at least forty-three years old.

R. Star wrote: View Post

But don't worry BillJ, your line of thought will probably prevail.
Not even sure what this means. Whatever decision CBS makes with regards to the future of Trek, it won't impact me one way or the other. It's a TV show.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Hollywood would rather redo something that's been done, than do something new after all. There's no risk in that.
You do realize that just recreating Trek with yet another crew really isn't original? Original programming would be creating an all new sci-fi space series with its own unique rules and characters and bad guys.

Another Trek series is just a variation on a theme. So whether it's Kirk and the Enterprise or Douchebag and the Fanboy, it's just going to the well one more time.

Using Kirk and Spock just gives it a better chance of success. In my opinion.
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Old August 13 2013, 12:02 AM   #59
Konata Izumi
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Melakon wrote: View Post
This is the only thing Paramount/CBS cares about. Like it or not, Star Trek is a business. If it stops making money, they'll find a new cash cow.
Wtf is Paramount/CBS? Surely the creative people are part of it/them too? Stop obsessing about money more than these companies even. Major decisions are made for reasons other than money. It's just people in buildings who do many many things. Bosses just want to look efficient.
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Star Trek, to most people, is Kirk and Spock.
Most people never watched the show and to them it's probably just lots of standing around a starship bridge lethargically and/or some Plato's Stepchildren type moment from TOS.
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
It's not a question of should it or shouldn't Star Trek be rebooted. It's going to be rebooted, again and again.
This will probably happen, but not necessarily soon. They'll be trying a new generation for sure at some point as both were so obvious successes when they were done once before.

If they want new viewers they can do wtf they like with the show as long as it's interesting, and the viewers will come.
BillJ wrote: View Post
Using Kirk and Spock just gives it a better chance of success. In my opinion.
If they're just hacking something together, yes. If there's a decent idea in the works, it could go either way. There is also the almost fully original route of remaking TNG because people actually liked the show, but the spin-offs might make it look unprofitable which of course makes no sense. What could also happen is they'll do something lame, they'll know it's lame, and it won't work.

Last edited by Konata Izumi; August 13 2013 at 12:16 AM.
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Old August 13 2013, 12:48 AM   #60
BillJ
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Re: Plot for a new Star Trek Series

Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
Wtf is Paramount/CBS? Surely the creative people are part of it/them too? Stop obsessing about money more than these companies even. Major decisions are made for reasons other than money. It's just people in buildings who do many many things. Bosses just want to look efficient.
Projected profitability will drive every decision that is made regarding Star Trek or any other entertainment project. They don't make these shows out of the goodness of their hearts, they have employees to pay and shareholders to satisfy.

There was just a story the other day that two underachieving movies will likely cause the head of Sony studios to get fired.

And I will obsess over whatever I want. Thankyouverymuch.
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