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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 11 2013, 09:46 PM   #16
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

T'Ryl wrote: View Post
To me it is kinda like Japan bombing Hawaii, and the US just saying, "it's alright, we are not going to do a damn thing about it."
Actually, it's more like Saudi Arabia bombing the World Trade center and the U.S. declaring war on Afghanistan.

Think about it: Nero -- a renegade Romulan -- destroys Vulcan and is narrowly prevented from destroying Earth. Barely a year later we see warhawk Admiral Marcus, who is trying to start a war with... The Klingons?

Rumor has it we might meet more Klingons in STXII, seems to me we need to deal with the Romulans.
We already dealt with the Romulans. Nero is dead, Kirk blew his ship to smithereens and flushed it down a black hole. Case closed. And the Romulan Empire at this time in history is technologically inferior to the Federation in almost every way; the Klingons remain, at this point, a far greater threat.
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Old August 11 2013, 09:58 PM   #17
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Interestingly, Klingons is what Starfleet was worried about just before Nero made his temporal and temporary incursion... The walla on the Kelvin bridge includes discussion about whether the space thunderstorm would be the doing of the Klingons, and the response is a negative: the ship is "75,000 kilometers from the-".

We don't know from what, exactly, but essentially our teaser heroes are practically brushing off against something relating to the Klingon threat! Was the ship on a mission to spy on the formidable enemy (while apparently on her way to Earth where Winona Kirk would have given birth to a son in an orderly fashion not long thereafter)? Was she being shadowed by Klingons in a classic cold war moment? Was she doing the shadowing? Had she just finished off a Klingon in battle, then been distracted by the storm? No matter what the rationale, being but a fraction of a lightsecond away from Klingons was supposed to be reassuring at that point of time!

It's sort of a logical continuum there, then, as regards who is the real threat.

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Old August 11 2013, 11:21 PM   #18
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote: View Post
Interestingly, Klingons is what Starfleet was worried about just before Nero made his temporal and temporary incursion... The walla on the Kelvin bridge includes discussion about whether the space thunderstorm would be the doing of the Klingons, and the response is a negative: the ship is "75,000 kilometers from the-".

We don't know from what, exactly, but essentially our teaser heroes are practically brushing off against something relating to the Klingon threat!
In the script it's the Klingon Neutral Zone and the distance is 150,000 instead.

Timo wrote: View Post
Was the ship on a mission to spy on the formidable enemy (while apparently on her way to Earth where Winona Kirk would have given birth to a son in an orderly fashion not long thereafter)?
We don't know that Kirk was born on Earth in the prime timeline. He could have been born in space.

Timo wrote: View Post
Had she just finished off a Klingon in battle, then been distracted by the storm?
I doubt it... they were in Fed space, after all.
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Old August 11 2013, 11:38 PM   #19
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

In the script it's the Klingon Neutral Zone and the distance is 150,000 instead.
That wouldn't have been much of an improvement, in the sense that Klingons could certainly have been responsible for the space storm if the action indeed took place right next to their territory.

We don't know that Kirk was born on Earth in the prime timeline. He could have been born in space.
True enough - being "from" Iowa might mean just having a residence there. But Kirk lives in San Francisco at the time of the movies, and supposedly lived on Tarsus IV for part of his youth. So where does the special significance of Iowa come from? Is it some lengthy chapter in his middle years - or the site of his very first years after all?

I doubt it... they were in Fed space, after all.
That's where Kirk Prime had all his battles with Klingons, though.

Although what in the movie suggests that the Kelvin would have been in Federation space? As opposed to neutral space, or Klingon territory, or perhaps Romulan space (which was the starting point of Nero's time travel, and typically Trek time travel doesn't take you to a different location)...

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Old August 12 2013, 12:02 AM   #20
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote: View Post
True enough - being "from" Iowa might mean just having a residence there.
Or it might mean he grew up there even though he was born in space, just as it was in the Abramsverse timeline.

Timo wrote:
or perhaps Romulan space (which was the starting point of Nero's time travel, and typically Trek time travel doesn't take you to a different location)...
If they were in Romulan space why would there be a mention of Klingons, as opposed to Romulans?

Red matter black hole time travel appears to operate by different rules than some time travel we've seen before. Not only does the time travel create a branching timeline, but you emerge in a different location from where you started. Nero's group had to mathematically calculate where Spock would emerge, it wasn't as simple as just going back to where they came out. And since Spock and Nero had different emergence points, from that alone we know that at least one of them had an emergence point which was different from his departure point. So we know that, generally speaking, it cannot be assumed that in red matter black hole time travel the emergence point will necessarily be the same as the departure point.
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Old August 12 2013, 01:45 AM   #21
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote: View Post
I think the language contained in the logs would be enough. Not everyone in Starfleet's linguistics division is as ignorant of Romulan as Uhura's predecessor.
But what possible reason would the first Nero encounter give to anybody for thinking that the language they hear is Romulan? According to the "three dialects" scene, the language Nero would have spoken would have been Vulcan! (Unless, of course, he spoke English to his Starfleet captive, or used a superior future translator that would leave Robau hearing English but unable to deduce the originating language.) There's no good reason why Starfleet would think that Vulcan-looking (if bald and tattooed) people speaking Vulcan would be Romulans, not unless something like "Balance of Terror" subsequently happened.

And obviously something did, because our heroes in 2258 know a thing or two about Romulans, none of which they could have learned from the stories of late Robau's surviving crew. But with some other incident revealing that Romulans are renegade Vulcans, everybody would naturally realize that the renegade Vulcans who destroyed the Kelvin were most probably Romulans.

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Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I'm sure the audio/visual/whatever records from the Kelvin would be enough.

I think the language contained in the logs would be enough.
That's making the fairly large assumption that such logs exist. More likely all Starfleet would have had is the debriefing of the bridge personnel who witnessed the exchange between Robau and Ayel.

And while the bridge crew were monitoring Robau's life signs, there was no indication that they were listening in to anything that was said while he was aboard the enemy ship.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The shuttles must have contained copies ...
Not necessarily.

Again, Kirk knows the ship that attacked the Kelvin was Romulan. Something must have happened to give Kirk that knowledge. More than likely it was the logs from the Kelvin or from histories written by people who examined those records. (Perhaps Pike's dissertation) Also, the Romulan language has been known since before the UFP was formed. T'Pol knew the language in the 22nd Century and Hoshi Sato heard it then. The war that followed would also give humans and their allies a great deal of experience with the language. I assume the UT would record the original language as well as give a translation.
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Old August 12 2013, 01:10 PM   #22
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Copies of the U.S.S. Kelvin logs would have been downloaded to all the evac shuttles as a matter of emergency routine: "Let the next guy know what killed you" to quote David Brin's novel Earth.

And Nerys Myk has figured out much of the rest of how they'd deduce "Narada = Romulan ship" from there.
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Old August 12 2013, 02:24 PM   #23
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Also, the Romulan language has been known since before the UFP was formed. T'Pol knew the language in the 22nd Century and Hoshi Sato heard it then.
But STXI insists that it's indistinguishable from Vulcan, unless you are an expert. Something really doesn't add up there.

In terms of the nuMovies, the first Nero encounter would offer zero information on why this bunch of violent Vulcanoids attacked a Starfleet ship. In terms of the rest of Trek, Romulans must have changed their native language after "Minefield"!

I guess the only way out of this is to assume that when the no-name Lieutenant indicates inability to tell Romulan from Vulcan, it's akin to somebody saying he can't tell Polish from Russian. This is only halfway plausible: Romulans are such an ancient enemy that it's perfectly possible virtually nobody knows their language - but Vulcans are such a close ally that any communications officer should be fluent in that language, or at least be able to positively identify it.

Okay, let's believe that one impossibility before breakfast: perhaps nobody bothers to learn Vulcan, because there are fewer than 10,000 Vulcans outside the homeworld. Fine; nuUhura is a linguist, and knows both of the obscure languages. Pike probably had experts to help him establish for his dissertation that Nero spoke Romulan - but now we hit the next problem...

...He doesn't see any connection between the space thunderstorm (an odd phenomenon Chekov deems worth reporting, wholly out of context!) and Romulans, despite being the expert there! How does that fit with the supposed timelines? Are space thunderstorms fairly typical after all, even though none were encountered before 2233? Or is Pike simply far less interested in his old dissertation than the obsessed Kirk Jr.? (Perhaps he copy-pasted his academic work?)

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Old August 12 2013, 10:26 PM   #24
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, the Romulan language has been known since before the UFP was formed. T'Pol knew the language in the 22nd Century and Hoshi Sato heard it then.
But STXI insists that it's indistinguishable from Vulcan...
Kinda like the way Japanese and Swahili sound similar to people who doesn't speak either language.

In terms of the nuMovies, the first Nero encounter would offer zero information on why this bunch of violent Vulcanoids attacked a Starfleet ship...
Except they were speaking one of the known dialects of Romulan. Presumably, the same dialect that the Romulans had used to negotiate the neutral zone treaty 60 years earlier.

OTOH, this being the Abramsverse, it's entirely possible -- and even likely -- that Robau knew (or at least suspected) that Nero was a Romulan. He has two reasons not to jump to conclusions here:
1) the Narada is freaking huge and bears no resemblance to anything the Romulans have ever been known to build
2) Their behavior, the layout of their ship, their tattoos and customs are very strange, and the questions they start asking him are puzzling to say the least.

When Ayel asks him about the stardate, Robau asks "Where are you from?" I think at that point he had a good idea what was really going on. Nero must have realized this as well, which is why he killed him.

Okay, let's believe that one impossibility before breakfast: perhaps nobody bothers to learn Vulcan
Impossibility? Vulcan is preset #2 on all Federation universal translators. NOBODY learns Vulcan anymore, except for actual Vulcans.

How does that fit with the supposed timelines? Are space thunderstorms fairly typical after all, even though none were encountered before 2233?
It probably just slipped Pike's mind. He wrote that dissertation, what, 20 years ago? How much do YOU remember about an essay you wrote in the 1990s?

Kirk, OTOH, would have read it RECENTLY, so it would still be fresh in his mind. Also, it's more personal to Kirk than it is to Pike so he would have memorized the details of his father's death even if Pike's dissertation was actually an analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the Kelvin class starship in emergency situations.
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Old August 13 2013, 12:51 AM   #25
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Ancient would be a stretch, since its roughly one hundred years between Minefield and ST09. Maybe Lt. No Name just isn't very good at his job. As far as I'm concerned, Kirk's knowledge that the Romulans attacked the Kelvin trumps Lt. No Name's lack of expertise in Vulcanoid languages.
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Old August 13 2013, 11:34 AM   #26
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Or there could have been further incidents outright establishing that Romulans are renegade Vulcans. But that's not necessary, merely a plausible addition, if we go the "Comms Lieutenant doesn't know Polish from Russian" route. It just differentiates between two outcomes if Pike actually contacts the Romulan Star Empire over Nero's antics: Romulans grunt that they have nothing to do with this Nero character and close the channel, or Romulans go to utter panic because the Federation has somehow found out they are pointy-eared, green-blooded ex-Vulcans!

But there's another aspect to this:

Except they were speaking one of the known dialects of Romulan.
On the background, yes (although Ayel might have been speaking English). But how does the UT actually work? After the translation is done, is it possible to learn what the original language had been?

Most probably there would be ways to dig up the information after the fact, by opening a "toolkit" menu and rummaging through the short-term memory of the device. But the device died with Robau... Would a putative transmission from Robau to Kelvin have carried this "comment track" or just the translation?

Then again, Sisko has to learn to speak Bajoran to conduct ceremonies. Yet most Bajorans can communicate with Sisko all right, before Sisko learns any Bajoran - and Bajorans don't strike me as the type to stoop to learning foreign languages. If Bajorans have UTs that turn Sisko's English (French? Creole? Personal mumbling?) into Bajoran, how can they tell whether Sisko is conducting a ceremony in Bajoran? If we assume they can (and it's not something Sisko does simply because he finds it spiritually necessary), then the UT most probably could also reveal the original language of Ayel, down to nuances such as dialect. And the UT could do that fairly trivially, not just with expert help. So if the Kelvin crew eavesdropped, they might have gotten some clues, too.

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Old August 13 2013, 04:36 PM   #27
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Let's also not forget that, if ENT is accurate that Section 31 existed as far back as the Earth Starfleet, and if Section 31 has always been so good at acquiring information, Section 31 and certian high-level Starfleet and Federation officials probably knew what Romulans looked like during the original war. (The "Star Trek: Federation" book speculates that this was intentionally kept secret so as to not disrupt the burgeoning alliance between Earth and Vulcan.)

Therefore, all we need is for someone from Section 31 to see a recording from the Kelvin to know who the attackers are, and then I'm sure the S31 machine cranked into high gear, gathering information on Romulan language and culture.
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Old August 13 2013, 04:37 PM   #28
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Timo wrote: View Post
Most probably there would be ways to dig up the information after the fact, by opening a "toolkit" menu and rummaging through the short-term memory of the device. But the device died with Robau...
... which is why they would have analyzed Ayel's message to the Kelvin herself. It's highly unlikely Ayel was speaking English at the time.

Then again, Sisko has to learn to speak Bajoran to conduct ceremonies.
And when he speaks Bajoran, his words are usually untranslated. It's probably because Bajorans are really anal about the proper recitation of scripture and the universal translator doesn't preserve all the nuances of meaning and/or rythm and structure of the passages.

If Bajorans have UTs that turn Sisko's English (French? Creole? Personal mumbling?) into Bajoran, how can they tell whether Sisko is conducting a ceremony in Bajoran?
Have you ever gone to a bible study at a Southern Baptist church? I've seen people literally thrown out of the building because they brought the wrong translation (King James Only, dammit!)

Also, many Muslims will insist on reciting the Quran in the original Arabic despite the fact that many of them don't speak a word of Arabic. Same with many Catholic rites that are still recited in Latin, which NOBODY speaks anymore. I reserve the possibility that Sisko may be speaking a Bajoran dialect that even most Bajorans don't speak themselves and isn't programmed into most translators (and there's precedent for that as well; we know there is at least one Klingon language that the universal translator doesn't catch).
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Old August 13 2013, 05:05 PM   #29
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Everything happens faster in this timeline - contact with the Cardassians (at least compared to the Prime-novelverse), the crew comes together, Praxis explodes, Khan is awoken, the death scene in the warp core etc etc. so I have zero trouble with the Federation and Romulan Empire having had renewed formal contact years before "Balance of Terror", stemming from the attack on the Kelvin.
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Old August 13 2013, 06:14 PM   #30
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Re: Nu!Trek and Romulan War

Good point, your highness. Dominion War in three... two... one...
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