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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 11 2013, 08:24 PM   #1
Roboturner913
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'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Considering all of Bashir's high-minded talk about how the ends don't justify the means and how 31 needs to be destroyed, his actions are pretty objectionable.

He blatantly lies to Starfleet Command, he's indirectly responsible for Sloan's death, and then he forces his way into Sloan's mind - a situation we've seen compared to rape in numerous other episodes.

It's not even that so much that bothers me. It's that he doesn't seem to understand what he has done. This was basically his "In the Pale Moonlight." But does he have regrets? No. He plays darts and drinks with O'Brien while patting himself on the back for his ingenuity.

Pretty disturbing if you ask me.
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Old August 11 2013, 08:43 PM   #2
DS9forever
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Well, the writers admitted it is the one episode of the Final Chapter that didn't work. But doesn't Sloan call out Bashir about what Bashir is doing?
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Old August 11 2013, 10:30 PM   #3
R. Star
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Bashir basically became what he hated, what Sloan wanted, in this episode. A man who will put all moral considerations aside to do what needs doing.
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Old August 12 2013, 02:05 AM   #4
JirinPanthosa
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Bashir did what needed to be done to prevent genocide. I agree it's his In The Pale Moonlight.
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Old August 12 2013, 02:16 AM   #5
JarodRussell
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
a situation we've seen compared to rape in numerous other episodes.
Yeah, the "mind rape" again. It's an absolutely inept analogy.


They were looking for information, they were not attempting to sexually dominate him.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:13 AM   #6
Roboturner913
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
a situation we've seen compared to rape in numerous other episodes.
Yeah, the "mind rape" again. It's an absolutely inept analogy.


They were looking for information, they were not attempting to sexually dominate him.
It is not an "absolutely inept analogy" at all. It is still "absolutely" an invasion, whether there is a sexual element or not. There's a reason Bashir had to procure highly illegal devices to pull it off in the first place.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:37 AM   #7
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

I think we've seen that a lot of Bashir's experiences during the DS9 years, especially the stuff with 31 and Garak, were about a naive and cocky guy becoming seasoned. Was Extreme Measures squeaky clean morality? Definitely not. But it was certainly a more defensible act than what we've seen 31 do. Bashir is a duly authorized civil servant, he reported what he was doing to his CO, he undertook the dirty deed to save his friend and prevent a genocide, and he gave Sloan the opportunity to simply give him what he wanted.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:52 AM   #8
Melakon
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

It's too bad Martok couldn't supply one of those Klingon mindsifters that Kor threatened Kirk with in "Errand of Mercy". I always wondered why they didn't rate a mention in TNG. Instead, the Romulans seemed to have something that did the same thing.
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Old August 12 2013, 03:57 AM   #9
R. Star
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Well the Romulan mind probes, which they did use in this ep, seem to be better as the victim survives the process. Kor said the mind sifters would've left him as a vegetable.
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Old August 12 2013, 04:07 AM   #10
Melakon
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Bashir was so intent on gaining the cure, I don't think he would have cared if a mindsifter left Sloan a vegetable or not. Though I suspect the writers completely forgot about the mindsifter.
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Old August 12 2013, 04:15 AM   #11
R. Star
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

I just always assumed the Romulan device, which does the same thing without crippling the victim, was more efficient and that's why Bashir used them.
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Old August 12 2013, 11:05 AM   #12
JarodRussell
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
a situation we've seen compared to rape in numerous other episodes.
Yeah, the "mind rape" again. It's an absolutely inept analogy.


They were looking for information, they were not attempting to sexually dominate him.
It is not an "absolutely inept analogy" at all. It is still "absolutely" an invasion, whether there is a sexual element or not. There's a reason Bashir had to procure highly illegal devices to pull it off in the first place.
In a universe where telepaths exists, reading someone's mind isn't an invasion.
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Old August 12 2013, 11:33 AM   #13
MacLeod
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

^Yes it is. Just because telepaths exists doesn't automatically give them the right to invade someones mind.
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Old August 12 2013, 11:58 AM   #14
JarodRussell
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^Yes it is. Just because telepaths exists doesn't automatically give them the right to invade someones mind.
Who defines that right, when it's normal in their society?
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Old August 12 2013, 12:57 PM   #15
Jono
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Re: 'Extreme Measures' really bugged me

The issue would be that species like Betazoids can't help but read your thoughts, you're more or less broadcasting them as if you had spoken the thoughts out loud. Of course it's a different matter with Bashir and say Spock in STVI as they imposed their will on the minds of others. They had a choice and did what they did against the will of the other person, I'd say that would be classed as an "invasion".
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