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View Poll Results: Which class of ship is more powerful?
Galaxy class 26 54.17%
D'deridex class 22 45.83%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 10 2013, 04:46 PM   #31
Timo
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Summary of both sides of this argument... I'm right, you're wrong, even though I have no proof.
We all know what a Galaxy and a D'deridex look like, and if we didn't before, this thread has pictures. Many of us probably own Micro Machines models of both, even. It's not rocket science to establish the volume of each ship (with Micro Machines or ERTL kits, you can do the Archimedes thing; with 3D computer models, you can just click a button), and then to scale the sizes up or down to see what really happens.

Here's a helpful page for a detailed analysis of starship volumes (excessively detailed for the purposes of this thread, but still):

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

The Romulan ship needs to be scaled down quite a bit from the 1300m estimate used in that chart to match the 5,800,000 cubic meter size of the Galaxy... Essentially, even the 1000m version would be twice as bulky as the Federation ship.

Beyond this, it's speculation city, with material densities quite possibly well exceeding that of solid lead (that's the only way Kirk's old ship could approach Scotty's stated "nearly a million gross tons" mass). Starships are exotic beasts, and would be fully justified in packing exotic materials, including impossible ones; warp coils do impossible things, after all...

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Old August 10 2013, 04:55 PM   #32
BillJ
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Even if the D'deridex is smaller volume wise than the Galaxy, it still doesn't reason that it would be less powerful or would be less efficient in combat. The Galaxy is a "multi-mission explorer" while the D'deridex is pretty much a straight warship from everything I've seen on TV.

So all those things we see as part of the Galaxy (family quarters, holodecks, arboretums, science labs, classrooms) likely don't exist or exist in far smaller quantities on the D'deridex. So that is volume that they can dedicate to power generation, shield emitters, cloak emitters and weapons systems.
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Old August 10 2013, 05:02 PM   #33
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

...Wouldn't be so sure about it. The D'deridex is probably just about the only type of Romulan ship that gets to travel abroad (for any appreciable distance before getting caught for the illegal act, that is), so the Star Empire would certainly wish to have exploration gear aboard!

Even if the purpose is to seek out and destroy new life and civilizations, the seeking out part calls for dedicated instrumentation.

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Old August 10 2013, 05:09 PM   #34
BillJ
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Timo wrote: View Post
...Wouldn't be so sure about it. The D'deridex is probably just about the only type of Romulan ship that gets to travel abroad (for any appreciable distance before getting caught for the illegal act, that is), so the Star Empire would certainly wish to have exploration gear aboard!

Even if the purpose is to seek out and destroy new life and civilizations, the seeking out part calls for dedicated instrumentation.

Timo Saloniemi
Which is why I said "likely don't exist or exist in far smaller quantities on the D'deridex".
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Old August 11 2013, 01:39 AM   #35
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

BillJ wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post

I said tech manuals which means it could have been any of them, and I know it wasn't from the TNG tech manual, thank you for stating the obvious.
I was really hoping that you could back up your statement by mentioning which technical manual your numbers come from?
DS9 Tech manual, but since it wasn't writen by members of the show, it probably isn't true.
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Old August 11 2013, 01:49 AM   #36
R. Star
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

In the end it's published speculation. Speculation, no matter how fancily presented, does not equal fact.
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Old August 11 2013, 01:50 AM   #37
kgartm1185
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

BillJ wrote: View Post
Even if the D'deridex is smaller volume wise than the Galaxy, it still doesn't reason that it would be less powerful or would be less efficient in combat. The Galaxy is a "multi-mission explorer" while the D'deridex is pretty much a straight warship from everything I've seen on TV.
We can't say that the D'deridex was a "straight warship" as it was never stated to be only a warship. Anyways, a ship that large would have to have some other purpose, especially since it was the only ship seen other than the science and scout ships.
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Last edited by kgartm1185; August 11 2013 at 02:12 AM.
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Old August 11 2013, 03:25 AM   #38
BillJ
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post

I said tech manuals which means it could have been any of them, and I know it wasn't from the TNG tech manual, thank you for stating the obvious.
I was really hoping that you could back up your statement by mentioning which technical manual your numbers come from?
DS9 Tech manual, but since it wasn't writen by members of the show, it probably isn't true.
Written by Rick Sternbach and Doug Drexler. Both people who have actually worked on the various shows.

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Even if the D'deridex is smaller volume wise than the Galaxy, it still doesn't reason that it would be less powerful or would be less efficient in combat. The Galaxy is a "multi-mission explorer" while the D'deridex is pretty much a straight warship from everything I've seen on TV.
We can't say that the D'deridex was a "straight warship" as it was never stated to be only a warship. Anyways, a ship that large would have to have some other purpose, especially since it was the only ship seen other than the science and scout ships.
Unless someone had evidence to the contrary, I think it's safe to assume the D'deridex is a warship. I'm not sure they'd call it a "warbird" just because.

I really don't think they'd send a ship into the Neutral Zone or in support of an invasion that couldn't hold its own in a firefight.
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Old August 11 2013, 07:46 AM   #39
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
The sense I always got was that the Warbirds' technology were overall inferior to the Federation's, especially with Galaxy class and newer, and the only thing that might give the Romulans the edge is cloaking technology.
I didn't get that impression at all. If anything, TNG attempted to portray their technological level as essentially the same. Unlike all other powers, where the rival was shown to be weaker (this includes Klingons and certainly includes Ferengi and Cardassians).

The Romulans must fear the Federation's strength for some reason though, otherwise they wouldn't demand by treaty that the Federation not be allowed to have a cloaking device.
Well, no one knows what else was in the Treaty of Algeron. It redefined the Neutral Zone and it prevented the Federation from using cloaking devices. Roddenberry said that cloaks were antithetical to the federation, so they might not have seen it as a huge loss. The Romulans don't want the Federation using cloaks because it helps them preserve an advantage. The Romulans can go freely into the Neutral Zone, the Federation generally stays to their side. There's no reason to think the anti-cloaking provision was out of fear rather than just preserving an advantage.

There's not enough evidence one way or the other to say. Tin Man seems to be the episode that considered technical capacity the most. It makes clear that the Enterprise is faster than a Romulan Warbird. On the other hand, Romulan disruptors seemed effective at incapacitating the Enterprise even with shields. Romulan shield capacity wasn't tested (I can't think of an episode where a Galaxy class fired on a Romulan Warbird). Overall, probably not enough to go on. I think it's fair to say they can both destroy each other (hence the whole Balance of Terror, Mutually Assured Destruction themes).

I am not saying it would be an easy win for a Galaxy class at all, just that I get the impression the Romulan Warbirds are overall inferior technologically speaking (not just talking shields and weapons, but all technology) to the Galaxy class ships and newer. But inferior tech doesn't necessarily mean under the right circumstances, a Warbird couldn't defeat a Galaxy class. My reasoning being completely subjective, but if a Galaxy class ship is a multi role, peace keeping ship and a Warbird is all warrior, yet both are comparable in terms of combat, that tells me that over all, the Feds have better technology as it is better equipped for not just warfare, but exploration (better tech and more research labs), has the ability to offer comfortable living space to even the lowliest of its crew, and even by your citation of Tin Man, has better speed. Not being as bulky, it's reasonable to believe that the Galaxy class is more maneuverable than the Warbird, too.

As for the cloak provision of the Treaty, if maintaining their cloak superiority is so important to the Romulans, for me at least, that tells me that they are very reliant on the Cloak to counter Federation ships. Conversely, that tells me that the Federation isn't worried enough about Romulan tech to object to having to give up the rights to cloaking tech. Put another way, unless the Federation was defeated by the Romulans during some war, and the Romulans dictated terms where the Federation had no choice but to abdicate rights to developing cloaking devices, then it seems to me that the Federation is confident enough that their technology is sufficiently superior to handle the Romulans, to not only allow the Romulans cloaks, but to feel they don't need to have cloaks, themselves. For example, during the Klingon Civil War, the Feds demonstrated they have the means to track cloaked ships.
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Old August 11 2013, 03:43 PM   #40
Alidar Jarok
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
I am not saying it would be an easy win for a Galaxy class at all, just that I get the impression the Romulan Warbirds are overall inferior technologically speaking (not just talking shields and weapons, but all technology) to the Galaxy class ships and newer.
Again? Is this based on anything? The impression I've got is the opposite. The reason is that, when a species has inferior technology, they've taken care in the show to demonstrate this. For example, the Federation could read Cardassian transponder codes. I believe they flat out said that a Galor class was inferior to a Galaxy class (while describing it as still "top of the line."). Ferengi ships were definitely shown to be inferior (as their technology as a whole) in spite of initial speculation that they were equal. Romulans, on the other hand, were never shown to be inferior. Slower, yes, but that was pretty much it. Again, what's your impression based on?

it's reasonable to believe that the Galaxy class is more maneuverable than the Warbird, too.
I don't think it's reasonable to suggest either ship is noteworthy when it comes to mobility, especially when compared to Klingon Bird of Preys, the Defiant, etc. DS9 battles are usually the best indicator of mobility.

As for the cloak provision of the Treaty, if maintaining their cloak superiority is so important to the Romulans, for me at least, that tells me that they are very reliant on the Cloak to counter Federation ships. Conversely, that tells me that the Federation isn't worried enough about Romulan tech to object to having to give up the rights to cloaking tech. Put another way, unless the Federation was defeated by the Romulans during some war, and the Romulans dictated terms where the Federation had no choice but to abdicate rights to developing cloaking devices, then it seems to me that the Federation is confident enough that their technology is sufficiently superior to handle the Romulans, to not only allow the Romulans cloaks, but to feel they don't need to have cloaks, themselves. For example, during the Klingon Civil War, the Feds demonstrated they have the means to track cloaked ships.
The Federation gave up territory after fighting the Cardassians. They gave it up because they valued peace, not because they were defeated by the Cardassians. If anything, the technological advantage the Federation has over the Cardassians suggest that they could have imposed a unilaterally favorable treaty had they wanted to. It's just in their nature to value peace over conflict.

Now we don't know what happened in the Tomed Incident. We know that the Treaty of Algeron re-defined the Neutral Zone. We know it also prevented the use of cloaking devices. Perhaps the quid-pro-quo of territory change was favorable to the Federation (they did have peace with the Federation for 50 years and may have stayed that way longer but for the Borg attack on the Neutral Zone outposts). Perhaps they just valued peace more than the ability to use cloaks. Because they are predominantly explorers, the Federation prefers to not be cloaked (as Roddenberry put it "Starfleet doesn't sneak around"). If a war broke out against the Romulans, they can always equip their ships with cloaks (after all, given The Enterprise Incident, it seems that even Romulan cloaking devices are fairly compatible. Likewise, the Defiant was equipped with one without difficulty).

Given this, I'm not sure how much of a loss it was for the Federation to not routinely use cloaks. For the Romulans, however, they love cloaks. They also like to gain whatever advantage they can. Having the Federation not use cloaks, to me, is just preserving an advantage, not a sign of weakness. The Romulans are routinely shown as treating the Neutral Zone as their territory. They can patrol along Federation border with impunity because they're invisible. The Federation, on their part, generally stay on their side and enter as a last resort. The Treaty of Algeron could be seen predominantly as a negotiation over the Neutral Zone. To ensure the Federation doesn't enter, they can't have cloaks. It could be as simple as that.

during the Klingon Civil War, the Feds demonstrated they have the means to track cloaked ships
Yes, but they didn't know that when they signed the treaty. They did think there was a slight distortion from the cloak that could be seen (as the Klingon Bird of Prey could be seen in Star Trek III). It turns out they were wrong on that, because Romulan cloaks improved, but that was the belief. However, I don't think the ripple effect could track long-range anyway. Even now, the Romulans are invisible at warp as long as they stay under a certain speed (as seen in The Day is Cast). It's also worth pointing out that the tachyon net was very cumbersome and the Romulans figured out a way to disrupt it fairly quickly (suggesting the science capacity on a Warbird is nothing to laugh at).

I'd also point out, you first said that Romulan ships are weaker because they need the cloak provision to maintain balance and then follow that by saying that the Federation agreed to it because the cloak provision didn't give the Romulans much of an advantage. That's a bit of a contradiction.
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Old August 11 2013, 09:39 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Just to round up the few remaining onscreen facts about the mysterious Romulan ship, here's what I can recall:

* Capable of accommodating at least one runabout internally ("Improbable Cause"/"The Die Is Cast") - something of a feat for the Galaxy, as even the giant saucertop shuttlebay would have problems with doorway height. Then again, the E-D did somehow transport three runabouts ("Emissary"). The main E-D shuttlebay does have what looks like overhead doors... Whereas the Warbird has openings in the lower wing, and the ship hovers over any small craft it intends to capture ("Mind's Eye", "Improbable Cause"). Only an offscreen Probert artwork directly associates these openings with a shuttlebay function, though.

* Capable of firing photon torpedoes ("Contagion"; a ventral location is suggested by a brief blink of light).

* Capable of firing disruptors (various eps, almost invariably from the bow emitter in the middle of the deflector - but "Contagion" features a nondescript emitter in the rather unlikely location of the underside of the top hull!). The originally intended emitters, round domes scattered around the model, are never seen firing anything, and must probably now be interpreted as something else altogether.

* Bow disruptors can fire sustained or truncated beams or compact, almost spherical bolts. The latter are preferred, ever-so-slightly, in planetary bombardment in "The Die Is Cast".

* A single pilot apparently controls the movements and armaments of the ship, or at least is the only one to verbally respond to the commanding officer's orders regarding those things. Bridge crew size is less than half a dozen in all versions of the bridge set, and sometimes only the CO is seated.

* Apart from the bridge, features holding spaces for prisoners somewhere in the lower decks (as Garak and Odo escape such a facility and part ways only two decks up from the supposedly ventral shuttlebay that holds the runabout, even though Garak is heading for the bridge which supposedly is located somewhere higher up). Also features a comfortable lounge with big portholes for top-level chitchat, a separate dining hall without portholes for top officers, and at least one cargo bay.

* Possibly not equipped with holodecks, as Admiral Jarok doesn't appear to have experience of such and is impressed by a fairly basic simulation of the Valley of Chula, and the one (unreal) Romulan holodeck from "Future Imperfect" is a planetside facility.

Nothing particularly interesting there, and certainly nothing to establish one specific role or a range of roles for the vessel.

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Old August 12 2013, 07:57 AM   #42
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

BillJ wrote: View Post
The Galaxy is a "multi-mission explorer" while the D'deridex is pretty much a straight warship from everything I've seen on TV.
In Redemption, in order to resupply the Dura sisters side of the Klingon civil war, the Romulans sent needed supply using just three D'deridexs. This implies that they have a fairly large amount of internal cargo space.

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Old August 12 2013, 05:51 PM   #43
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

I feel like a scaled forward view would have solved the whole mass issue a page ago. I agree with Timo that 4.3 million metric tons is far too low for the D'Deridex if the Galaxy is 4.5 million.

As for matching, I feel that they are indeed roughly an even match. I might give some edge to the D'Deridex simply that their ship is arguably more combat-oriented and they probably have more people and might have an edge on repairing stuff in battle.
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Old August 12 2013, 08:01 PM   #44
Timo
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

One might argue that the Romulans would design their ships with the specific goal of being better than their foreign counterparts. The Galaxy project seems to have been a very public one, with all sorts of lowlife enjoying access to detailed information about the design. Backstage sources also suggest it to have been a lengthy project, dating back to the 2350s. The D'deridex might have been designed with the sole goal of being better than the Galaxy (even if by a crucial smidgen), with impeccable Romulan intelligence work establishing that the Federation wasn't planning on anything bigger or more powerful in the near future.

A more open society would just get entangled in a rat race. The standoffish Romulans could essentially keep their empire undefended for decades, skipping the construction of "intermediate" types while hiding behind the Potemkine facade of a thoroughly militarized star empire, so that they could pile up resources and unleash a superior design right when their foes had concluded their own supership construction work.

The Royal Navy sort of feared something like this happening for the entire duration of their dominance of the seas - which is why they refused to be the first to develop any really powerful or advanced ships, knowing that if they did so, some enemy or another would simply build a smaller number of even more powerful and advanced ships on knowledge stolen from Britain, and attain local dominance that way. Better to remain mediocre in terms of equipment, but absolute cream of the cream in terms of training.

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Old August 15 2013, 04:16 PM   #45
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
I am not saying it would be an easy win for a Galaxy class at all, just that I get the impression the Romulan Warbirds are overall inferior technologically speaking (not just talking shields and weapons, but all technology) to the Galaxy class ships and newer.
Again? Is this based on anything? The impression I've got is the opposite. The reason is that, when a species has inferior technology, they've taken care in the show to demonstrate this. For example, the Federation could read Cardassian transponder codes. I believe they flat out said that a Galor class was inferior to a Galaxy class (while describing it as still "top of the line."). Ferengi ships were definitely shown to be inferior (as their technology as a whole) in spite of initial speculation that they were equal. Romulans, on the other hand, were never shown to be inferior. Slower, yes, but that was pretty much it. Again, what's your impression based on?
You've got the impression the Galaxy class has inferior technology to the D'deridex.
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