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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old August 10 2013, 04:14 PM   #31
Hound of UIster
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
God i hated that part.

The book easily explained the power of the Fremen in a simple scene when Thufir Hawat talks with Baron Harkonnen about them.
Fremen grow up in one of the harshest environment known to mankind where they have to fight for their life each day and they manage to thrive in that environment. That's it.. simple but a really powerful explanation.
I never understood why Lynch never used this explanation.

Takeru wrote: View Post
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I have the second and third books, and just as soon as I finish 'World War Z' I intend to read them.
After you read them you should also read God Emperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse too. God Emperor was weird when I read it for the first time, I almost gave up, don't make that mistake, it's incredible. Heretics and Chapterhouse are great too and unlike many others I don't mind the ending.

Don't bother with the prequels, sequels and interquels written by Brian Herbert and kevin J. Anderson, they're so inferior it's not even funny. The Prelude to Dune trilogy has some nice moments but it feels like an alternate universe and the story could have been told in one novel, it didn't have to be a trilogy.
The Legnds of Dune trilogy takes the legend of the Buthlerian Jihad and turns it into nothing but a set-up for Brian Herbert's sequel to Chapterhouse, a shitty ending that really doesn't feel like it's ending the story Frank Herbert started.
They had pretty much admitted they had no idea what Herbert had planned. The two thinking machines as the final villains was the best those hacks could do. Whatever ideas Herbert really had, he took to the grave sadly.
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Old August 10 2013, 04:18 PM   #32
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I think it's clear Lynch didn't really understand the novel, as the film misses the point of all the major themes. The Fremen win because... they have the best guns? Paul... actually is a supernatural messiah that can make it rain?

Wait, wouldn't rain kill the sandworms and stop the spice flow, ruining the galaxy?

Love the movie but it's a bad adaptation.
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Old August 10 2013, 04:22 PM   #33
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
They had pretty much admitted they had no idea what Herbert had planned. The two thinking machines as the final villains was the best those hacks could do.
I am convinced Frank Herbert intended the thinking machines to be the final villains. The finale Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson gave to the series was sloppy, mediocre, and largely forgettable, but it's nowhere near as bad as a lot of the stuff they've done since.

The series is being milked to death. Though to be fair, it was like that when Frank was doing the books. The first, second, and third books all have endings intended to never be continued. He kept returning to his best money maker.
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Old August 10 2013, 04:29 PM   #34
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I thought the guy playing Gurney in the miniseries was a pretty bad actor.
When I first laid eyes on him, I was like, where did they find this guy? I thought he looked like he had just been rousted out of a bar after drinking all night and hustled to the set. Years later I realized it was Hatchet Harry!

DalekJim wrote:
The first, second, and third books all have endings intended to never be continued.
IIRC Herbert claimed that part of the third book was written before the first was completed, for whatever that's worth.
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Old August 10 2013, 07:45 PM   #35
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
They had pretty much admitted they had no idea what Herbert had planned. The two thinking machines as the final villains was the best those hacks could do.
I am convinced Frank Herbert intended the thinking machines to be the final villains. The finale Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson gave to the series was sloppy, mediocre, and largely forgettable, but it's nowhere near as bad as a lot of the stuff they've done since.

The series is being milked to death. Though to be fair, it was like that when Frank was doing the books. The first, second, and third books all have endings intended to never be continued. He kept returning to his best money maker.
While they weren't as good as the first 3 books, I like all of the main Dune series, including the books by his son. Also, the House atreides/Harkonnen/Corino books were great, and Paul of Dune/Winds of Dune were decent (although for some reason I don't remember Winds of Dune very well). That said, I couldn't get through even 100 pages of The Butlerian Jihad books and I won't read Sisterhood of Dune. I've been thinking of rereading the Dune series (in chronological order of the stories, not counting short stories, The Butlerian Jihad or sisterhood of Dune books). When I first read them, I read the first 4 books then eventually the others (although I accidentally skipped Chapterhouse Dune, which made it weird reading the latter books ). The series is really good, its one of my favorites.
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Old August 10 2013, 08:01 PM   #36
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Daddy Todd wrote: View Post
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I only hope they do all 4 original books next time.
Herbert wrote 6 Dune novels before his death:
Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune
I know, I've read them all. I just feel that the first 4 books are more closely linked than the last 2, regardless of Idaho clones.
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Old August 10 2013, 08:56 PM   #37
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
While they weren't as good as the first 3 books, I like all of the main Dune series, including the books by his son.
Am I the only one that thinks Dune Messiah is by far the weakest of Frank Herbert's Dune books? The second book is incredibly stripped down and simplistic in comparison to the first. It's still a good book, but it felt really cookie-cutter compared to the original. Nothing is examined in-depth and the main story is incredibly stream-lined and short. Got some terrific quotes though, and is better than the majority of sci-fi literature out there.

The series is really good, its one of my favorites.
Here I agree. The first book changed my life in quite a profound manner. It opened my mind considerably to the the complex relationships between nature, history, politics, religion, philosophy and technology. I remember the good old days of munching on drugs, going for walks through the English countryside and listening to the first book on audio. A profoundly spiritual experience.

The second best book of the series is God Emperor of Dune, which is also an off-beat masterpiece. The rest of the series is great but not quite as impressive. On the strength of books 1 and 4 alone though, Frank Herbert is second only to Robert Heinlein as the king of my sci-fi bookshelf.
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Old August 10 2013, 09:08 PM   #38
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I like the first 3 books about equally. God emperor is probably my least favorite of the main series. I still think its a good book, but it was a bit of an awkward transition in timeframe to me. The first 3 books took place in a few decades, then suddenly its 1000 years later and Leto has become a giant worm dictator. It just felt weird to me. Of course, it got weirder after that, but for some reason God Emperor is just the book I like a little less than the others. still, I've only read it once (unlike the first three books, which I've read a lot) so with my rereading the series I might feel differently about it.
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Old August 10 2013, 09:21 PM   #39
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Anachronus wrote: View Post
And for me Lynch's Bene Gesserit were much better
I don't know, I think Lynch took the "witch" nickname for the Bene Gesserit a bit too literally when developing their look.
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Old August 10 2013, 09:42 PM   #40
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I enjoy talking about everyones thoughts on Dune, it's making me really want to jump right into Dune Messiah, and I will shortly, almost done with World War Z.

I'd like to make a request though: While I in no way would attempt to stifle any conversation, if you're going to discuss plot points from the other books besides Dune, could you at least spoiler code it please? I'd like to find certain things out on my own
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Old August 10 2013, 09:50 PM   #41
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Watched Lynch's Dune this morning, explaining some to Hubby. Amazing how many lines of this version I know! Yeah, the look is lush, like an Italian steampunk.
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Old August 10 2013, 10:19 PM   #42
Set Harth
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
The first 3 books took place in a few decades, then suddenly its 1000 years later and Leto has become a giant worm dictator.
More like 3500 years.
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Old August 10 2013, 10:52 PM   #43
Hound of UIster
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

arch101 wrote: View Post
Daddy Todd wrote: View Post
arch101 wrote: View Post
I only hope they do all 4 original books next time.
Herbert wrote 6 Dune novels before his death:
Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune
I know, I've read them all. I just feel that the first 4 books are more closely linked than the last 2, regardless of Idaho clones.
The publication chronology would at least indicate that he wrote GEoD as a bridge from the original series to the unfinished Heretics/Chapterhouse/Dune7.
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Old August 10 2013, 11:15 PM   #44
DalekJim
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I like the first 3 books about equally. God emperor is probably my least favorite of the main series. I still think its a good book, but it was a bit of an awkward transition in timeframe to me. The first 3 books took place in a few decades, then suddenly its 1000 years later and Leto has become a giant worm dictator. It just felt weird to me.
A novel primarily featuring a giant sandworm dictator waxing philosophical is as beautiful an idea for a book as it gets. The rest of the sequels aren't as creative, though all of Frank's works are very good.
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Old August 10 2013, 11:31 PM   #45
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Its not a bad book by any means, its just that I read it after I'd read the first 3 books several times, so I think it was a bit hard to get into with how different it was. Even then I still liked it. It will be interesting to see what I think about it in my next reading (although I have to finish rereading the 3 House books, and the first 3 Dune books with Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune in the middle of those first).
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