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Old August 10 2013, 03:44 PM   #16
JarodRussell
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Chrono85 wrote: View Post
Terrorism. Terrorism is caused by the rich exploiting the poor, or the powerful exploiting the weak.
Or crazy religious zealots.
That feast on the poor/weak feeling exploited by the rich/powerful.

Religion is just an excuse. "Allah told me to kill American infidels", who cares. The underlying root for the hatred against someone else is independent from religion. If you don't hate someone to begin with, you won't misuse your religion to find excuses to kill him.
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Old August 10 2013, 03:48 PM   #17
R. Star
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Wow, people will blame the rich for anything these days.
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Old August 10 2013, 04:00 PM   #18
Chrono85
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

I don't believe that all hate can only stem from exploitation of the weak by the strong. I think that it can also come out of deeply held theological and philosophical beliefs. As someone who believes in God, I can safely say that there are plenty of religious folk out there who hate and oppress because they really do believe that it is what their god tells them to do. Look at Westboro Baptist Church, full of white, upper-class attorneys, whom I do not believe have experienced systematic oppression, and yet their religious beliefs lead them to hate and do terrible things. Their interpretations of the Bible are wrong, but still, it is their belief that causes their hate.
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Old August 10 2013, 05:57 PM   #19
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Chrono85 wrote: View Post
Terrorism. Terrorism is caused by the rich exploiting the poor, or the powerful exploiting the weak.
Or crazy religious zealots.

Yeah, I thought terrorism was caused by hateful nihilists who manipulate young hot-heads into thinking they'll have tons of sex in the afterlife.
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Old August 10 2013, 08:04 PM   #20
JarodRussell
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Chrono85 wrote: View Post
I don't believe that all hate can only stem from exploitation of the weak by the strong. I think that it can also come out of deeply held theological and philosophical beliefs. As someone who believes in God, I can safely say that there are plenty of religious folk out there who hate and oppress because they really do believe that it is what their god tells them to do. Look at Westboro Baptist Church, full of white, upper-class attorneys, whom I do not believe have experienced systematic oppression, and yet their religious beliefs lead them to hate and do terrible things. Their interpretations of the Bible are wrong, but still, it is their belief that causes their hate.
You don't have to be oppressed to start hating. The German weren't oppressed by the Jews. German were crippled by a war and - among others - blamed the Jews for it. They started their own little "religion" based on faulty genealogy as a basis to rile up the masses against Jews and all political opponents. Those Westboro guys are no different in principle. They might be white, rich, upper class, but somewhere deep down, they have some grudge against something, and use religion merely as a tool to express it.
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Old August 10 2013, 09:26 PM   #21
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Now I hate the oppression of the poor as much as anyone...but..even if I were a terrorist, I would never strike at "Elysium," since humanity as a whole has to survive. Better them than no one. The moment they leave space infrastructure..that's another matter.

But "Elysium" gets it wrong. You see, it is the bored rich who want useless sub-orbital rides, and gov't that launched ISS.

Therefore if something like Elysium is ever built--it will be more TVA than MSN.

The problem are the space libertarians who want to raid SLS budgets to fund a bunch of sub-orbital or LEO only craft to their hearts content. They would hold BEO exploration hostage.

That having been said, I don't mind the sub-orbital folks, since there may face stiff regulation http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthre...16#post2145116

Engineers often get it from both sides of the political spectrum. If you want flood controls and levees for poor people in the Ninth Ward, the Greens hate you because they oppose levees and dredging, and the GOP doesn't want to spend money on Flood controls because of their stingy-ness. NASA often gets caught in between as well.

The worst of all possible worlds would be a Rand Paul vs Hillary Clinton 2016 election cycle.

NASA gets screwed by either of those abominations.
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Old August 10 2013, 10:40 PM   #22
R. Star
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Newt Gingrich wants a moon base.
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Old August 10 2013, 10:45 PM   #23
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Our destiny is in space. That cannot be denied. We can't stay locked away on Earth forever. We MUST expand.
Or drastically cut back.
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Old August 10 2013, 10:46 PM   #24
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Shatnertage wrote: View Post
How do you define "the rich?"
Everybody in the world defines "the rich" as anyone who has more money than them.
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Old August 11 2013, 12:37 AM   #25
JarodRussell
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Our destiny is in space. That cannot be denied. We can't stay locked away on Earth forever. We MUST expand.
A curious statement.

How can the destiny of homo sapiens lie in space, when space is a deadly and absolutely unnatural habitat? Who defined that "undeniable" destiny?

And you feel "locked away" on Earth? Really? The ONLY place in the entire universe we currently know of where living beings can exist? That place makes you feel "locked away"?
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Old August 11 2013, 01:39 AM   #26
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

The fact that our solar system is a very finite prospect, Earth's habitability being even more finite.
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Old August 11 2013, 02:22 AM   #27
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

Of course we should explore and invest in space. We live on a planet with finite resources. Also, when did it become bad to be rich? In the good old days that is why you worked hard. Now days it seems people expect things to be given to them; like they are owed something. Newsflash: You are not owed anything!!! If you want something; work for it!
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Old August 11 2013, 06:12 AM   #28
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
How can the destiny of Homo sapiens lie in space, when space is a deadly and absolutely unnatural habitat?
Where have I heard that before?

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Old August 12 2013, 01:35 AM   #29
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

sojourner wrote: View Post

I've never owned a $100k Mercedes, but my current car has features that weren't even dreamed of in Mercedes from the 1990's.
I suggest listening to the Johnny Cash tune "One Piece At A Time" just for grins. Here's a link to a Youtube video of this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHniL8MyMM

Anyhow, even if you never actually go into space, you might be taking advantage of one of the spin-offs of space-related technology right this minute. That GPS on your golf widget that maps golf courses? Space program in the form of satellites. There's a rescue tool used by emergency responders that is a variation of explosive cutting devices that were used to separate devices from the Space Shuttle.

I don't really see space as becoming the playground for the very rich unless you count building very expensive "cruiseliner"-style spacecraft for rich space tourists. For as long as people go into space, there will be need for professionals who can steer the spacecraft to a distant world, repair the engines, and generally keep the rich people alive and help them reach their destinations as expediently as possible.
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Old August 13 2013, 03:11 AM   #30
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Should manned space flight be abandoned if only the rich benefit?

I reject the premise, and this false idea that everything that benefits the rich harms the poor and vice versa. The world does not have a finite amount of wealth that can either be distributed evenly or unevenly. Capital generates capital and it is easier to bring the poor up if you don't try to do it by dragging the rich down.

In the real world if there was an 'Elysium', there may be a paradise that only the rich can afford to live on, but those of us left down on Earth would sure benefit from building it, maintaining it, then trading with it, ending up richer than they were before. It's easy to blame the rich for being poor, until they invest their money in a company and that company gives you a job.

And I don't think man has a 'destiny' to expand, but we'd sure be a stronger race for expanding into space. You know, exploring the final frontier. To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go... It's not an entirely pragmatic argument and doesn't have to be. We should expand into space because it's there.
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