RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,227
Posts: 5,347,313
Members: 24,607
Currently online: 692
Newest member: lueth2048

TrekToday headlines

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

View Poll Results: Which class of ship is more powerful?
Galaxy class 26 54.17%
D'deridex class 22 45.83%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 9 2013, 10:25 PM   #16
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Size matters not, though. The Kazon had ships even larger than Romulan Warbirds, and Voyager could handle them one on one, easily.

The sense I always got was that the Warbirds' technology were overall inferior to the Federation's, especially with Galaxy class and newer, and the only thing that might give the Romulans the edge is cloaking technology.

The Romulans must fear the Federation's strength for some reason though, otherwise they wouldn't demand by treaty that the Federation not be allowed to have a cloaking device.
Agreed. That's exactly what I think.
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, 2368
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2013, 10:38 PM   #17
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Timo wrote: View Post
So it actually looks a lot bigger than it actually is.
Except that it does not. It is a lot bigger.

Just the coarse side view will reveal the massive warp nacelles, the humungous "head hull", and the sheer chord of those wings. The ship in the smaller of the two alternative views above is necessarily at least three times as heavy as the Galaxy, assuming somewhat similar materials and construction techniques, and quite possibly ten million tons heavier.

The Galaxy is a flat and flimsy thing that is mostly empty volume - draw a box around it and there's lots of "wasted" volume between the nacelles and underneath the saucer. Draw a box around the Romulan ship and the amount of "wasted" volume is at most the same, and probably a bit less.

Timo Saloniemi
So where is your proof that it is bigger in mass? I don't see any information anywhere that says the D'deridex has a greater mass than the Galaxy class. It's just the opposite of that actually. And for being a "flat and flimsy thing", the Galaxy class starships seem to hold up just as well or better than the Romulan warbird.
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, 2368
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2013, 10:40 PM   #18
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
So where is your proof that it is bigger in mass? I don't see any information anywhere that says the D'deridex has a greater mass than the Galaxy class. It's just the opposite of that actually.
So you have proof that the Galaxy has greater mass? Even though 35% of it is empty?
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 9 2013, 11:37 PM   #19
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

BillJ wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
So where is your proof that it is bigger in mass? I don't see any information anywhere that says the D'deridex has a greater mass than the Galaxy class. It's just the opposite of that actually.
So you have proof that the Galaxy has greater mass? Even though 35% of it is empty?
Yes, most sources say that the Galaxy class's mass is 4.5 million metric tons. They also say the Romulan warbird's mass is 4.3 million metric tons. No source says the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class. Therefore, there is no proof that the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class.
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, 2368
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 01:15 AM   #20
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Yes, most sources say that the Galaxy class's mass is 4.5 million metric tons. They also say the Romulan warbird's mass is 4.3 million metric tons. No source says the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class. Therefore, there is no proof that the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class.
Unless those sources include someone that actually worked on the show, I'd say they don't really count.
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:06 AM   #21
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

BillJ wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Yes, most sources say that the Galaxy class's mass is 4.5 million metric tons. They also say the Romulan warbird's mass is 4.3 million metric tons. No source says the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class. Therefore, there is no proof that the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class.
Unless those sources include someone that actually worked on the show, I'd say they don't really count.
They came from the tech manuals, a source you yourself have quoted in previous posts.
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, 2368
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:52 AM   #22
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Yes, most sources say that the Galaxy class's mass is 4.5 million metric tons. They also say the Romulan warbird's mass is 4.3 million metric tons. No source says the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class. Therefore, there is no proof that the Romulan warbird has greater mass than the Galaxy class.
Unless those sources include someone that actually worked on the show, I'd say they don't really count.
They came from the tech manuals, a source you yourself have quoted in previous posts.
It doesn't come from the TNG technical manual. Which was written by two people associated with the show (Rick Sternbach & Mike Okuda).
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 10:37 AM   #23
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

So where is your proof that it is bigger in mass?
The proof that it is bigger in volume is right in front of your eyes. If you want to insist that it is built out of lighter materials, feel free - but IMHO that is utterly idiotic.

FWIW, the DS9 Tech Manual mass figures are based on a fundamental error in thinking: they are proportional to the length of the starship. But starships are not cigar-shaped, and the mass should be proportional to at least the square of the length if not the cube...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 03:44 PM   #24
You_Will_Fail
Fleet Captain
 
You_Will_Fail's Avatar
 
Location: Trill, Federation World and Proud
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Just look at the beak of the D'deridex and the back, clearly more interior space than a galaxy glass, thing is HUGE
__________________
My 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4y_sR7l7Y
My 15 Favorite Star Trek Characters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofz1Zbpkxys
You_Will_Fail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 03:55 PM   #25
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Summary of both sides of this argument... I'm right, you're wrong, even though I have no proof.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:05 PM   #26
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

R. Star wrote: View Post
Summary of both sides of this argument... I'm right, you're wrong, even though I have no proof.
Lol
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, 2368
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:06 PM   #27
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

BillJ wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Unless those sources include someone that actually worked on the show, I'd say they don't really count.
They came from the tech manuals, a source you yourself have quoted in previous posts.
It doesn't come from the TNG technical manual. Which was written by two people associated with the show (Rick Sternbach & Mike Okuda).
I said tech manuals which means it could have been any of them, and I know it wasn't from the TNG tech manual, thank you for stating the obvious.
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it is scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth. It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based!" - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, 2368
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:12 PM   #28
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post

I said tech manuals which means it could have been any of them, and I know it wasn't from the TNG tech manual, thank you for stating the obvious.
I was really hoping that you could back up your statement by mentioning which technical manual your numbers come from?
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:26 PM   #29
JariM
Lieutenant
 
JariM's Avatar
 
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

About the mass of each ship.. Do we have canon knowledge about the materials the Romulans and the Federation use? Is it possible that the Romulans for example might use lighter but equally durable alloys to build their ships?
JariM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10 2013, 04:42 PM   #30
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
The sense I always got was that the Warbirds' technology were overall inferior to the Federation's, especially with Galaxy class and newer, and the only thing that might give the Romulans the edge is cloaking technology.
I didn't get that impression at all. If anything, TNG attempted to portray their technological level as essentially the same. Unlike all other powers, where the rival was shown to be weaker (this includes Klingons and certainly includes Ferengi and Cardassians).

The Romulans must fear the Federation's strength for some reason though, otherwise they wouldn't demand by treaty that the Federation not be allowed to have a cloaking device.
Well, no one knows what else was in the Treaty of Algeron. It redefined the Neutral Zone and it prevented the Federation from using cloaking devices. Roddenberry said that cloaks were antithetical to the federation, so they might not have seen it as a huge loss. The Romulans don't want the Federation using cloaks because it helps them preserve an advantage. The Romulans can go freely into the Neutral Zone, the Federation generally stays to their side. There's no reason to think the anti-cloaking provision was out of fear rather than just preserving an advantage.

There's not enough evidence one way or the other to say. Tin Man seems to be the episode that considered technical capacity the most. It makes clear that the Enterprise is faster than a Romulan Warbird. On the other hand, Romulan disruptors seemed effective at incapacitating the Enterprise even with shields. Romulan shield capacity wasn't tested (I can't think of an episode where a Galaxy class fired on a Romulan Warbird). Overall, probably not enough to go on. I think it's fair to say they can both destroy each other (hence the whole Balance of Terror, Mutually Assured Destruction themes).
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
d'deridex class, galaxy class

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.