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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 9 2013, 10:54 AM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

@ Crazy Matt

I think the tombstone engraving in WNM remains a subject of debate. One camp (to which I belong) believes "1277.1" to refer to the stardate James T. Kirk had been promoted to the rank of captain ("C"). I believe this theory holds water because the time span engraved here ends in what is the current stardate of the episode. Essentially it may be a sick joke of Gary Mitchell to emphasize on the short career of James "Rice" (academy nickname) Kirk as a starship captain.

The other camp believes it to be a birthdate (old Federation calendar? not explicitly listed as "stardate"!), much like the birthdates in Mitchell's and Dehner's file we see earlier in this episode onscreen. The thing is that the different digits in those files correspond to the difference in actual age of Mitchell and Dehner.
But there's no way, IMHO, to align "1277.1" within such a hypothetical system. If it were not a different time measuring system, one would need to ask why they didn't use stardates in "The Cage" because obviously Mitchell and Dehner had been born prior to events in this episode.

@ Warped9

I'm pretty certain there is no stardate mentioned in "my"
file on Talos IV.
Is it possible you are thinking of the Mitchell and Dehner files from WNM instead?

Bob
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Old August 9 2013, 01:23 PM   #17
Warped9
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

There's no date spoken by Pike in "The Cage" or "The Menagerie" but I'm pretty sure there is a date printed on the report Mendez shows Kirk.
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Old August 9 2013, 02:20 PM   #18
Chemahkuu
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd180.jpg

No Stardate is given, but it also lists Talos as being in the Vernal Galaxy, so I'm not sure how trustworthy it is.
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Old August 9 2013, 03:07 PM   #19
Warped9
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd180.jpg

No Stardate is given, but it also lists Talos as being in the Vernal Galaxy, so I'm not sure how trustworthy it is.
My bad then. I thought sure I saw on stardate on that document. I stand corrected.
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Old August 9 2013, 03:38 PM   #20
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

To be honest I thought there was one myself and was looking for the image to find it, it might be in the dialouge so I'll find an oppertunity to rewatch the episode and see.
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Old August 9 2013, 03:49 PM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd180.jpg

No Stardate is given, but it also lists Talos as being in the Vernal Galaxy, so I'm not sure how trustworthy it is.
"Vernal" refers to a previously unexplored part of our galaxy. I told my secretary to write "vernal part of our galaxy" but unfortunately she screwed up.

Please also note that the recommendation not to ever visit Talos IV again was limited to "humans". Unfortunately Commander Spock had apparently forgotten that he was half-human. Hence my successors decided to be lenient toward him after his "stunt" at Stardate 3012.4...

Bob
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Old August 9 2013, 03:57 PM   #22
Chemahkuu
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

I assumed it meant to the outer reaches of this galaxy, which would fit. Then again, first season, not much pinned down, could have been either.

But I could have sworn there was a stardate on it, just my memory getting worse.

But then it brings up the idea of galactic "time zones" with gradations as one moves out from the galactic core, making Earth roughly halfway out (a space meridian) where stardates differ slightly in each?
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Old August 9 2013, 07:58 PM   #23
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I assumed it meant to the outer reaches of this galaxy, which would fit.
There is no reason why "vernal" would mean that. It literally means "pertaining to spring," or can figuratively mean youthful or new. It would be oddly poetic and metaphorical to use it as a synonym for "uncharted"; one would think that official military orders would require more clarity.

Bottom line, most laypeople don't understand what "galaxy" means, and TV writers are generally no exception. Lots of TV shows and movies have had spaceships traveling casually between "galaxies" without any regard to whether it made astronomical sense. The original Battlestar Galactica had the fleet traveling through several galaxies in the course of a year -- at sublight speeds. The "Vernal Galaxy" thing was a goof, like so very, very many other SFTV goofs.
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Old August 9 2013, 08:19 PM   #24
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Or an area of one of the spiral arms that is relatively new in terms of the overall age of the Milky Way, and given that name because of it.

And to my knowledge the original Galactica left their home galaxy to cross over to the Milky Way, one hop, and that they sped the ship up for the voyage, not to FTL speeds that they were aware of. But that there was something unusual and mostly unstated about it.

Then again, they never explained what Tylium was, or what their home "galaxy" was, it could have been one of the Magellanic Clouds and they found a streamer of some sort that sped the journey on.
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Old August 9 2013, 08:30 PM   #25
Hober Mallow
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd180.jpg

No Stardate is given, but it also lists Talos as being in the Vernal Galaxy, so I'm not sure how trustworthy it is.
Apparently Spock's official position isn't just "Science Officer," it's "Half-Vulcan Science Officer." LOL...
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Old August 9 2013, 08:40 PM   #26
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

The amount of xenophobia towards Spock in the series is alarming at times.
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Old August 9 2013, 08:59 PM   #27
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Or an area of one of the spiral arms that is relatively new in terms of the overall age of the Milky Way, and given that name because of it.
No such thing. Or rather, all the spiral arms are the regions where new star formation is taking place -- that's basically what they are, pressure waves passing through the galactic disk, compressing the interstellar medium enough to trigger star formation. So no arm is going to be any "younger" than any other arm -- and any arm is still going to have older stars in it as well as newer ones, so the arm as a whole isn't going to be "younger" any more than a city with a higher birth rate is going to be "younger."

It's clearly a mistake. They meant "Vernal Galaxy" to mean some entire galaxy called "Vernal" because they didn't know what the hell they were talking about. Not to mention that it's a bit of set dressing that was never meant to be legible on camera so it wasn't really thought through very carefully.


And to my knowledge the original Galactica left their home galaxy to cross over to the Milky Way, one hop, and that they sped the ship up for the voyage, not to FTL speeds that they were aware of. But that there was something unusual and mostly unstated about it.
No, they passed through several galaxies in the course of the series. In one early episode, they were said to be leaving their home galaxy and passing into another -- and the two "galaxies" were right next to each other with no space between them. They didn't reach our galaxy until the final episode, "The Hand of God" -- which portrayed our galaxy as somehow tiny enough that there was only one route into it so they couldn't sneak past the Cylon outpost on the rim.


Then again, they never explained what Tylium was, or what their home "galaxy" was, it could have been one of the Magellanic Clouds and they found a streamer of some sort that sped the journey on.
No, the writers just didn't know what the hell they were talking about.
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Old August 9 2013, 09:02 PM   #28
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

I think we're drifting off topic at this point.
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Old August 9 2013, 09:16 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

The thing is that the different digits in those files correspond to the difference in actual age of Mitchell and Dehner.
But there is no "actual" age for either character.

Those files do list an "age" for the characters, but that doesn't seem to correspond much to the ages of the characters (in terms of looks) at the time of the episode. Nor should they, as files of that sort ITRW never would have "age" in the sense of "birthdate". It's probably when they took the PSI exam instead...

And in that case they could be of the same age, give or take a day or ten, and Kirk is simply a few months younger (in the 1000 SD = 365 d model) or, more probably, a few months less than a decade older.

Apparently Spock's official position isn't just "Science Officer," it's "Half-Vulcan Science Officer." LOL...
Which is probably vital information when dealing with a telepathic threat.

They meant "Vernal Galaxy" to mean some entire galaxy called "Vernal"
A somewhat more probable genesis would be in general astronomical terminology. In "vernal equinox", the word indicates a direction, after a fashion: it divides the universe in two for the observer. Similarly, our galaxy could be divided in vernal and autumnal halves for the observer, and the writer may have thought that this was the case, or then harmlessly postulated that this would be the case, this being technobabble-with-verisimilitude just as much as "quadrotriticale" or "synchronic meter" is.

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Old August 9 2013, 09:20 PM   #30
Hober Mallow
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Re: Could stardates make some sense?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
And to my knowledge the original Galactica left their home galaxy to cross over to the Milky Way, one hop, and that they sped the ship up for the voyage, not to FTL speeds that they were aware of. But that there was something unusual and mostly unstated about it.
That reminds me of the original Star Blazers cartoon, the English-dubbed version of the Japanese Yamato series. In one of the early episodes, the Argo crew engage their FTL drive in order to begin the long journey to a distant star system. They fire up the FTL, and make it all the way... to Mars. It takes them about half the series to get past Pluto, whereupon they zip all the way to another galaxy. In addition, the show's writers (or, more likely, the English translators) use "solar system" and "galaxy" interchangeably, and it's never quite clear which term they mean.
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