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Old August 7 2013, 09:10 PM   #76
Tomalak
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sisko basically nukes a planet in 'For the Uniform', and that was just a police action against a bunch of poorly-equipped colonists. And Starfleet Command okays it after the fact.

However, that was more a case of the ends justifying the means. It was retaliatory, none of the colonists are killed, and there's a nice facile conclusion whereby both sets of colonists simply swap planets.

There also seem to be all sorts of bans on the really nasty stuff, like Thaleron radiation and the isolytic weapons used by the Son'a. Why didn't the Dominion basically nuke Federation planets like Betazed? It might be out of character for the Feds, and perhaps the Klingons, but not the Dominion. Therefore, there must be technical or ethical reasons for them not doing so.
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Old August 7 2013, 09:14 PM   #77
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Yeah, I don't buy no one being killed in that attack at all. Unless you think the Maquis is so well equipped that there's enough spaceships just laying around for everyone on the planet(thousands if not millions) to get on in an hour's notice.
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Old August 7 2013, 09:32 PM   #78
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Actually, the Maquis would be just the sort to be prepared to flee at a moment's notice - they know they are being hunted, after all.

And the population of the planet apparently was quite low, as is typical of colonies in DS9 and TNG: Eddington said that Sisko's actions would turn hundreds of thousands into refugees if Sisko eliminated every Maquis colony out there! Since there apparently are more than two such colonies out there, we're talking about populations numbered in mere thousands...

"Nobody died" might thus be a good approximation, although I suspect there would have been some less hardy individuals, like kids and grannies, who either died of Sisko's toxins or were trampled to death in the evacuation.

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Old August 8 2013, 01:04 AM   #79
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

picsiskvinechef wrote: View Post
The Treaty of Algeron would be nulled and have no standing. Thus, whilst the Romulans will have a brief advantage due to the cloaking device, there is nothing to prevent the UFP from obtaining its own cloaking tech. And we saw in The Pegasus that this is superior to anything (that we know of) the Romulans held.
I've a problem with this statement. The Treaty of Algeron is mentioned several times, but its terms are never made plain (beyond the Federation's not being allowed to have cloaking technology). We don't know what concessions the Romulans were forced to make in order for the treaty to be signed.

Although the treaty may have prevented the Federation from developing cloaking technology, it's also entirely possible that it contained provisions preventing the Romulans from making significant improvements to their existing cloaks, as well as a developing other weapons that would have given them an advantage over the Federation.

Subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accords: the Romulans were present at this conference. It's entirely within the realm of probability that a similar clause was included in the Treaty of Algeron. Granted, this is an entirely hypothetical scenario and has no basis in fact. But my point in mentioning this is that we cannot assume that breaking the treaty would benefit only the Federation. Treaties are based on compromise and mutual concessions: we don't know what the Romulans were forced to concede; therefore, we can't know how they'd benefit if the treaty were abandoned.

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Old August 8 2013, 02:09 AM   #80
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Really interesting topic!

I'm not sure how much of a military threat the Star Empire would be against the Federation post-Nemesis.

Even if they joined the Dominion War late, they suffered considerable losses (including their flagship). However, as others have pointed out, according to Sloan they would be in the best position to threaten the UFP.

But then Shinzon happened. While that upheaval might be overstated, that has to contribute to their diminished influence. If only in political terms. Now they have to deal with the Remans uprising. They have to deal with the political ramifications of being part of a plot to be aggressive against the UFP. Then again, throughout Trek the Romulans constantly engaged in plots to hurt the Federation (brainwashing Geordi to assassinate a Klingon or trying to steal the Prometheus) yet the Federation just laughs it off and forgives them...

Then their sun going nova or being caught in that "wave" from the Hobus star. Yes. They're an interstellar empire and thus...can probably survive that. But the idea that the loss of Romulus and Remus (which was a source of dilithium) would not affect them in any major way is laughable... It would set them back. A lot.

There is no argument that out of the major powers, the Federation got out of all these vents with the best standing.

Having said that....

Barring the Romulan-Earth War and the Dominion War, the Romulans don't seem to usually engage in open military conflicts. They seem to rather use subterfuge, sabotage, manipulation, etc. CIA/KGB tactics to bring down governments. So even with all the set backs they've suffered, the Romulans could still engage in these tactics to "bring down" the Federation.
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Old August 8 2013, 10:12 AM   #81
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
... two atomic bombs. The Federation would never resort to the two latter measures ...
In the event of a major war (seem to be what we're discussing) why wouldn't Starfleet destroy one target that is a weapon manufacturing center, and another target that is a important transportation hub and military command headquarters?

They would destroy the two military targets with precision strikes, in the same way as the modern day military would.

While debating the atomic bombs is outside the scope of this thread, I'd emphasise I think it was probably the right call to drop them in those unique circumstances. The US military DID NOT choose the two cities in question because of a specific military objective, though like most cities in any nation in WW2 they contained significant military targets.

They were deliberately left off the target lists for 20th air force firebombers partly with the "testing" of the atomic bomb in mind. In fact Nagasaki wasn't even the the first choice target, Nagasaki was added to the target list after Kyoto was removed, because of its cultural significance, and on the raid itself it was only a backup for Kokura.

Revisionist historians sometimes describe the atomic bombings as unnecessary or even as war crimes. They ignore the two main reasons that everything was done at the end of WW2 by the USA, to just end the constant deaths of its citizen soldiers ending a war that could only end one way, and to say to the USSR "keep off the grass".

Back on topic, while the darker actions of Section 31s attempted genocide, Sisko's environmental pollution (though the episode suggests that no deaths were involved) and probably other examples suggest the Federation is not squeaky clean, as a policy they would never force an unconditional surrender through the carpet bombing of civilians.

The main reason being, they don't need to. Area bombing in WW2 was not a choice, the technology existing at the time meant the only way to guarantee dislocation of industry was to carpet bomb an area hoping to take out a factory and those who worked there. As a concept, while vastly more effective in Japan's wooden cities than it was against Germany, area bombing proved less effective than anyone ever hoped, and would prove ineffective again in Vietnam. Modern day estimates suggest an F-16 armed with JDAM or similar smart munitions has the ability to affect targets equivalent to 100 B-17s, due to the accuracy of its weaponry.

Starfleet could easily destroy a military target in a city without affecting any surrounding civilian targets, so why bother nuking anything?
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Old August 8 2013, 09:08 PM   #82
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

One would assume that all the players in the 24th century would be well versed in the general capabilities of a starship or an armada of starships, and would prepare defenses accordingly. Precision strikes could be negated by hiding the industries or (in the case of certain threats such as the UFP Starfleet) by extensively using civilians as shields. Industries would probably also be rather distributed; one could even imagine a war industry operating on the household replicators and transporters of a city, while the civilians would still live in those households and just get their food from central kitchens.

Then we have the Breen strike against Starfleet Headquarters. Apparently, it achieved next to nothing: instead of biblical-level destruction, we see tiny craters, thin pillars of smoke and some charred buildings, plus of course symbolic damage to the Golden Gate bridge. Does this mean the Breen only wanted symbolic destruction and carefully avoided using any of their usual weapons, merely firing dedicated harmless firecrackers to send the message of "these could have been antimatter warheads and this could be a crater deep enough to spew magma for millennia, but we aren't the sort of bad guys our partners-in-war are, and please do remember that at the peace negotiations"? Or does it instead mean that San Francisco and other cities have defenses that turn the awesome destructive power of a standard starship death ray into this harmless show-and-tell?

Destroying of entire planets was a novelty for the Dominion; apparently, they appreciate captured planets enough to avoid destruction in the usual case. Attacking Starfleet HQ was unheard of as well - but there we didn't learn why this should be. Granted, the Breen attackers didn't survive their heroic mission, but surely Klingons and Romulans would be ready to perform suicide strikes as well?

In a Federation/Romulan conflict, symbolic strikes of this sort might well feature heavily, considering how Romulans always want maximum effect from minimum effort and go for fancy precision plots instead of frontal attacks...

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Old August 9 2013, 12:21 AM   #83
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
They were deliberately left off the target lists for 20th air force firebombers partly with the "testing" of the atomic bomb in mind. In fact Nagasaki wasn't even the the first choice target, Nagasaki was added to the target list after Kyoto was removed, because of its cultural significance, and on the raid itself it was only a backup for Kokura.
Prior to the atomic bombing, Nagasaki had been bombed nine times.

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Old August 9 2013, 10:58 AM   #84
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
They were deliberately left off the target lists for 20th air force firebombers partly with the "testing" of the atomic bomb in mind. In fact Nagasaki wasn't even the the first choice target, Nagasaki was added to the target list after Kyoto was removed, because of its cultural significance, and on the raid itself it was only a backup for Kokura.
Prior to the atomic bombing, Nagasaki had been bombed nine times.

All relatively minor raids. Nagasaki was relatively unimportant in the greater scheme of things except to the people who lived and died there, it wasnt even a particularly good test site for the bomb due to its geography.

Not sure the point you are making?
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Old August 9 2013, 05:50 PM   #85
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Regarding the size of the Federation versus the size of the Romulan Star Empire, and how it relates to the original question, I do subscribe to the notion that the Federation is more "nebulous" with non-member systems packed between member systems, making a Federation star chart look vaguely like Swiss cheese. Would those non-member worlds be considered in Federation space, as least as protectorates or something? And what would happen if one decided to join another alliance? The size of the Federation is probably not accurate to its true strength, given that we can be fairly certain of its sprawl.

The Romulan Empire, on the other hand, would be one primarily of colonization and annexation, therefore it would likely be more tightly packed and have a smaller border. This would also fit well with the Romulans being a generally xenophobic people; having a tighter border would make entrance and egress to their space easier to control. That being said, I think the Empire's size is also not an accurate representation of its power. Some have speculated the Empire to be much like ancient Rome - overcrowded, underfunded, and generally in need of MORE of everything. I would counter that surely an Empire capable of mastering the apparently complex nature of an artificial singularity power source is not deprived of key resources, at least. Oppressive? So it seems. Impoverished? I doubt it. The Romulans do like to make a show of things, and surely their massive warbirds are thus designed largely for this effect, and perhaps larger than they "should" have built, but I doubt that they are starving their children to do so.
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Old August 9 2013, 06:08 PM   #86
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
They were deliberately left off the target lists ...
Prior to the atomic bombing, Nagasaki had been bombed nine times.
Not sure the point you are making?
Just that it hadn't been "left off the target lists."

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Old August 9 2013, 07:12 PM   #87
USS KG5
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Prior to the atomic bombing, Nagasaki had been bombed nine times.
Not sure the point you are making?
Just that it hadn't been "left off the target lists."

It had not yet received the 20th air force firebombing treatment, and this was deliberate, but OK!
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Old August 10 2013, 04:20 AM   #88
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Praetor wrote: View Post
Regarding the size of the Federation versus the size of the Romulan Star Empire, and how it relates to the original question, I do subscribe to the notion that the Federation is more "nebulous" with non-member systems packed between member systems, making a Federation star chart look vaguely like Swiss cheese. Would those non-member worlds be considered in Federation space, as least as protectorates or something? And what would happen if one decided to join another alliance? The size of the Federation is probably not accurate to its true strength, given that we can be fairly certain of its sprawl.

The Romulan Empire, on the other hand, would be one primarily of colonization and annexation, therefore it would likely be more tightly packed and have a smaller border. This would also fit well with the Romulans being a generally xenophobic people; having a tighter border would make entrance and egress to their space easier to control. That being said, I think the Empire's size is also not an accurate representation of its power. Some have speculated the Empire to be much like ancient Rome - overcrowded, underfunded, and generally in need of MORE of everything. I would counter that surely an Empire capable of mastering the apparently complex nature of an artificial singularity power source is not deprived of key resources, at least. Oppressive? So it seems. Impoverished? I doubt it. The Romulans do like to make a show of things, and surely their massive warbirds are thus designed largely for this effect, and perhaps larger than they "should" have built, but I doubt that they are starving their children to do so.
"...making a Federation star chart look vaguely like Swiss cheese." Lol, that's so true!
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Old August 10 2013, 08:40 AM   #89
The Emissary
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Praetor wrote: View Post
Regarding the size of the Federation versus the size of the Romulan Star Empire, and how it relates to the original question, I do subscribe to the notion that the Federation is more "nebulous" with non-member systems packed between member systems, making a Federation star chart look vaguely like Swiss cheese. Would those non-member worlds be considered in Federation space, as least as protectorates or something? And what would happen if one decided to join another alliance? The size of the Federation is probably not accurate to its true strength, given that we can be fairly certain of its sprawl.

The Romulan Empire, on the other hand, would be one primarily of colonization and annexation, therefore it would likely be more tightly packed and have a smaller border. This would also fit well with the Romulans being a generally xenophobic people; having a tighter border would make entrance and egress to their space easier to control. That being said, I think the Empire's size is also not an accurate representation of its power. Some have speculated the Empire to be much like ancient Rome - overcrowded, underfunded, and generally in need of MORE of everything. I would counter that surely an Empire capable of mastering the apparently complex nature of an artificial singularity power source is not deprived of key resources, at least. Oppressive? So it seems. Impoverished? I doubt it. The Romulans do like to make a show of things, and surely their massive warbirds are thus designed largely for this effect, and perhaps larger than they "should" have built, but I doubt that they are starving their children to do so.
Good points. My sentiments exactly. I've always was annoyed by those maps that made each empire like a sprawling connected mass of land. There should be massive gaps throughout the UFP. Which actually could explain the constant "you're the only ship nearby" phenomena. If other ships have to jet around non-Fed space, it may make traversing the entirety of the UFP very difficult.
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Old August 10 2013, 10:33 AM   #90
Timo
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Regarding the artificial quantum singularity power source, complexity doesn't necessarily imply superiority - quite the opposite might be the case.

If you create fuel for your cars with the Fischer-Tropsch method, that's "advanced" and "complex" but establishes your nation as a pariah state lacking in natural resources. If you use wood gasifiers, you're toying with even more complex technologies (and risking your life every time you take a ride), but that's because you don't have oil wells.

Romulus might have been forced to develop AQS systems early on because the peace treaty left it with a fixed territory devoid of natural dilithium resources. Indeed, perhaps there never were any dilithium-powered starships in the Romulan Star Empire, and that's why Scotty was fooled into thinking that the Romulan plasma mortar vessel would lack warp capacity altogether (when all it had was an inferior if advanced and difficult-to-identify powerplant).

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