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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 7 2013, 07:02 PM   #211
Hober Mallow
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Use of Time wrote: View Post
I think that was what Riker initially wanted when Necheyev briefed them but she was pretty entrenched with Jellico due to his experience with Cardassians.
It wouldn't surprise me, though, if Riker's turning down a commission at least three times (and possibly a fourth time following "TBOBW" before he agreed to a reduction in rank to continue being Picard's beotch) that Starfleet would be reluctant to ever again offer him command of anything.
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Old August 7 2013, 07:17 PM   #212
SeerSGB
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I think a lot of a Jellico's attitude was a put on for the crew. Just like he made a big show for the Cardassians, he was making a show for the crew. He wanted them to think he was there to stay (remember Riker says they usually don't got through the ceremony they did in 10 Forward for a temp transfer), twitchy trigger figured, pissed off son of a bitch. Sews the whole act together so that no one slips at a critical time.

Yeah, Jellico is probably more hard ass than Picard, but what we saw on the Enterprise could have been him exaggerating his personality.
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Old August 8 2013, 12:16 AM   #213
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Interesting idea about him playing it up, but I think if he were consciously putting on an act, he would have mended things with Riker after the crisis. Instead they still hate each other, even when he's forced to ask for Riker's help. His dislike for Riker must be real at the very least.
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Old August 8 2013, 12:54 AM   #214
Sran
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yeah, Jellico is probably more hard ass than Picard, but what we saw on the Enterprise could have been him exaggerating his personality.
If anything, I think the plot exaggerated his personality to provide conflict. What's funny is that the conflict generated by his personality just made the Enterprise crew look bad, as though Picard coddled them.

Makarov wrote: View Post
Interesting idea about him playing it up, but I think if he were consciously putting on an act, he would have mended things with Riker after the crisis. Instead they still hate each other, even when he's forced to ask for Riker's help. His dislike for Riker must be real at the very least.
Their dislike was genuine. I think that was the point of them dropping the ranks during their discussion. But Jellico was big enough to ask for Riker's help, something he didn't need to do. LaForge could've flown the shuttle. Riker acted like an ass (again), almost taunting Jellico when he said, "Then ask me." He enjoyed that moment too much for someone who'd been relieved of duty because he couldn't follow his captain's orders.

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Old August 8 2013, 01:20 AM   #215
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

If Riker wasn't being so selfish he'd have gone to Jellico himself to volunteer when he by his own words heard Jellico had been talking to every pilot on the ship. I personally think Jellico did the whole "drop the ranks" thing just so he could give Riker the opportunity to get everything off his chest before he flew that mission.
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Old August 8 2013, 01:25 AM   #216
Sran
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
If Riker wasn't being so selfish he'd have gone to Jellico himself to volunteer when he by his own words heard Jellico had been talking to every pilot on the ship. I personally think Jellico did the whole "drop the ranks" thing just so he could give Riker the opportunity to get everything off his chest before he flew that mission.
Which is precisely why I think Riker was in the wrong during that particular discussion. He could have offered an olive branch but instead made Jellico come to him (after talking to LaForge) rather than the opposite. I wish there had been an after-action scene in which Picard reminded Riker of his place. His behavior throughout the episode was inappropriate.

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Old August 8 2013, 01:40 AM   #217
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
I think that was what Riker initially wanted when Necheyev briefed them but she was pretty entrenched with Jellico due to his experience with Cardassians.
It wouldn't surprise me, though, if Riker's turning down a commission at least three times (and possibly a fourth time following "TBOBW" before he agreed to a reduction in rank to continue being Picard's beotch) that Starfleet would be reluctant to ever again offer him command of anything.
I could imagine that being the case. Of course, if Starfleet was a real military organization, there's no way they would have allowed Riker to continue serving as Enterprise's first officer. Especially after they lost so many commanders after the Borg attack. He would have been ordered to assume command of a vessel. Perhaps they would have given him the choice of which one but the end result is he would have been kicked upstairs.
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Old August 8 2013, 01:50 AM   #218
Sran
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
I could imagine that being the case. Of course, if Starfleet was a real military organization, there's no way they would have allowed Riker to continue serving as Enterprise's first officer. Especially after they lost so many commanders after the Borg attack. He would have been ordered to assume command of a vessel. Perhaps they would have given him the choice of which one but the end result is he would have been kicked upstairs.
Which is part of the problem with Roddenberry's idea of what constitutes the Trek pantheon. Even humans of the twenty fourth century should be somewhat ambitious, though perhaps not ambitious for the same reasons that humans of today are. There's absolutely no reason why Riker wouldn't have wanted a command of his own, even if it meant leaving Enterprise.

One idea that I think should have been explored is Riker remaining in command of Enterprise after "The Best of Both Worlds" as Picard is allowed to take an extended leave of absence on Earth (beginning in "Family"). Captain Riker is eventually demoted or otherwise removed from command later in the season, which conveniently happens when Picard is ready to return. This justifies keeping Riker aboard Enterprise and also explains how Picard could return. In any case, it's more believable than Riker remaining an executive officer for fifteen years.

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Old August 8 2013, 05:02 AM   #219
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
If Riker wasn't being so selfish he'd have gone to Jellico himself to volunteer when he by his own words heard Jellico had been talking to every pilot on the ship. I personally think Jellico did the whole "drop the ranks" thing just so he could give Riker the opportunity to get everything off his chest before he flew that mission.
Agreed. You'd think that someone who'd gotten himself relieved of duty because of being so passionate about saving Picard, would've been looking for the earliest opportunity to aid in saving him, instead of stroking his own ego, sitting on ass waiting for Jellico to come around & kiss it. Basically it's the worst behavior Riker's ever had
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Old August 8 2013, 06:38 AM   #220
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

They screwed the pooch on the writing on these episodes. They're still good, they just just flipped things. If the crew had been busting ass to get what Jellico wanted done, not whining, and Jellico had made unreasonable--even outlandish--demands, we'd sided witht he crew. Instead, we have a captain trying to get ready for a war and a crew mad cause they've gotta put in a little extra effort.
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Old August 8 2013, 06:50 AM   #221
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
They screwed the pooch on the writing on these episodes. They're still good, they just just flipped things. If the crew had been busting ass to get what Jellico wanted done, not whining, and Jellico had made unreasonable--even outlandish--demands, we'd sided witht he crew. Instead, we have a captain trying to get ready for a war and a crew mad cause they've gotta put in a little extra effort.
I don't think the writers were trying to get the audience on the crew's side. They obviously wanted us to see both sides making mistakes. Funnily enough, Jellico turned out be the person that got a lot of support from the audience.
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Old August 8 2013, 07:41 AM   #222
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sran wrote: View Post
I wish there had been an after-action scene in which Picard reminded Riker of his place.
That would be a cool scene. Has there ever been a scene in TNG where Picard reprimands Riker (aside from alien illusions / manipulations)?
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Old August 8 2013, 10:59 AM   #223
sariel2005
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

It wouldn't surprise me, though, if Riker's turning down a commission at least three times (and possibly a fourth time following "TBOBW" before he agreed to a reduction in rank to continue being Picard's beotch) that Starfleet would be reluctant to ever again offer him command of anything.
Something thats seems to bite him in the ass here. It seems that Riker at some point decided that he wants command of the Enterprise, nothing else ( notice that in " Future Imperfect" he sees himself as captain of the Enterprise ). As such he clearly believes if Picard is not captain it should be him, notice that he tells Necheyev he doesn't see why Jellico should assume command to conduct negotiations and his reaction to her dimissing him ( in fairness she was pretty nasty about it).

Actually I can see Necheyev telling Jellico about that little exchange, which might explain why, although initially congenial, Jellico seems to dismiss Riker as a bad officer so quickly.
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Old August 8 2013, 12:54 PM   #224
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I'm remembering Deanna's conversation with Wyatt Miller all the way back in season one's "Haven." She said something to the effect of "what he wants most in life is to Captain a starship." Somewhere along the way "a starship" turned into "this starship" and he appeared content to wait out Picard. (Until Nemesis)
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Old August 8 2013, 03:39 PM   #225
DarthPipes
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
It wouldn't surprise me, though, if Riker's turning down a commission at least three times (and possibly a fourth time following "TBOBW" before he agreed to a reduction in rank to continue being Picard's beotch) that Starfleet would be reluctant to ever again offer him command of anything.
Something thats seems to bite him in the ass here. It seems that Riker at some point decided that he wants command of the Enterprise, nothing else ( notice that in " Future Imperfect" he sees himself as captain of the Enterprise ). As such he clearly believes if Picard is not captain it should be him, notice that he tells Necheyev he doesn't see why Jellico should assume command to conduct negotiations and his reaction to her dimissing him ( in fairness she was pretty nasty about it).

Actually I can see Necheyev telling Jellico about that little exchange, which might explain why, although initially congenial, Jellico seems to dismiss Riker as a bad officer so quickly.
Yeah, Necheyev was so undiplomatic when dismissing Picard and Riker. I get it, she's a commanding admiral but could have handled both those instances a lot better.

As I recall, in the early drafts of First Conatct Riker had become captain of the Enterprise-B and Picard was a commodore/admiral.

In the alternate All Good Things future, Riker has taken the Enterprise-D as his flagship and he tells Picard at the end of Enterprise-D he always thought he'd have a chance at that chair. Picard finally outlasted him in keeping the Enterprise.
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