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Old August 7 2013, 12:42 AM   #46
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

E-DUB wrote: View Post
My theory on registry numbers is that when a new class of ship is authorized a block of numbers is reserved for it. But if new ships of that class are needed, for whatever reason, once that block of numbers is exhausted, the ship is simply assigned an available number.

This explains both sequential numbers and the occasional "wild card".
I tend to favor the batch system myself, and I personally choose to ignore Matt Jefferies' intention for a system representing class build and then individual build. It's not inherently a bad system, by any means, and it would work better if there was a more consistent registry system. But since there isn't and it can be tricky to try and make the existing numbers work, I prefer to assume each class has its own batch number that can be modified as necessary. Occasionally you might have numbers overlap, not necessarily a problem if the ships are distinct generations apart, and normally a ship's registry would change in accordance with it being modified or refitted into a more modern class than when it was commissioned.
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Old August 7 2013, 12:56 AM   #47
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
A big problem with that theory is that it was established in dialogue that the Miranda class (i.e. the Reliant) is faster and more heavily armed than the Constitution class (i.e. the Enterprise).
That doesn't sound right. In "The Wrath of Khan", it was established the lightly-damaged Reliant was able "to out-run and out-gun" the heavily-damaged Enterprise.

We do not know how the two ships compare to each other in their undamaged states.

We do have some hints though.
1. The Enterprise holds the speed records that the Excelsior aims to break. She likely has more power and thus more power for phasers.
2. The Miranda-variant-with-rollbar, Reliant, has the same number of phaser emitters as the Enterprise and possibly 2 extra aft-torpedo launchers.
3. The Mirandas that we see in TNG are mostly the ones without the rollbar which reduces the ship's phaser emitter count by at least 4 and torpedo launcher count by 3 (moving the launcher to the saucer underside.)
4. The Dominion War saw the Miranda-variant-with-rollbar return in number.

A key point in "The Undiscovered Country" was the mothballing and retirement of the military program of Starfleet. The Enterprise and her type could've been part of that group. The Mirandas by design could be made into a non-threatening explorer by removal of the rollbar. So it would make sense for Starfleet to stay flexible with keeping the Mirandas around but retire the more dedicated warships like the Enterprise, IMHO.
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Old August 7 2013, 02:39 AM   #48
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

IIRC, the Lantree was the only ship that lacked the rollbar, and that was only because of issues relating to the rollbar's wiring. The crew couldn't get the lighting elements to work properly in time for shooting (the last use of the model had been the depowered Saratoga in TVH), so they ultimately decided to simply remove the element for "Unnatural Selection."
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Old August 7 2013, 06:52 AM   #49
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
Whether destroyed or distant, the supposed other starships would have been equally unavailable. We did see some antiquities in the Wolf 359 collection of ships...
No we did not. We saw relatively new builds (or relatively recent refits) of seemingly old designs. In fact, only Miranda we know for sure was at Wolf-359 was the Saratoga, a ship with a fully modernized LCARS computer, modern escape pods and weapons, and a full crew including civilian scientists. This is not a ship that got pulled out of a museum two days ago just for the battle; this is a ship that got pulled off its regular assignment without enough warning for the Wife and Kids to get off at the next starbase.

Incidentally, the precedent for "old ship still in full-time service" is the USS Stargazer. Picard describes it as overworked and under powered and threatening to fly apart at the seems; Stargazer in particular does not appear to have been as extensively upgraded as the Saratoga, and was probably overdue for an upgrade (and indeed, might have BEEN upgraded after Enterprise recovered it from Maxia).

In addition to or instead of museum pieces, these designs could also have been one-off prototypes or test rigs, found in abundance at the busy shipyards of Sol - this would match the real-world identity of many of the models.
But again, would not be consistent with the Saratoga's situation, nor the Stargazer precedent.
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Old August 7 2013, 08:52 AM   #50
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the model of the Constitution was a b*tch to work with in terms of shooting, and that models like the Miranda and Excelsior a lot easier. Hence they were used more in TNG since there wasn't any CGI yet. Could be wrong though, could be the TOS Connie I read that about, not the Movie Connie.
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Old August 7 2013, 02:15 PM   #51
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Unicron wrote: View Post
IIRC, the Lantree was the only ship that lacked the rollbar, and that was only because of issues relating to the rollbar's wiring. The crew couldn't get the lighting elements to work properly in time for shooting (the last use of the model had been the depowered Saratoga in TVH), so they ultimately decided to simply remove the element for "Unnatural Selection."
There was also the Bozeman that lacked a rollbar prior to the Soyuz-class retirement not too long after "The Undiscovered Country".

And in early DS9 we saw Sisko's Saratoga that participated in the Battle of Wolf-359 which also lacked the rollbar. It wasn't until the Dominion War kicked off in earnest that we saw a resurgence of Mirandas with the rollbars, IIRC.
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Old August 7 2013, 03:13 PM   #52
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
As far as speed is concerned, they both seem relatively identical, although the Miranda may have less mass overall, making it slightly more maneuverable. As far as weaponry is concerned, the Miranda does seem to have a distinct advantage over a Connie with their mega phaser emplacements on the roll bar, plus two rear facing torpedo tubes, neither of which the Connie seems to have. It could be argued that a Miranda is more heavily armed.
More heavily armed? Most likely. However, I'd say the connie's are likely more heavily armored then Miranda's.
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Old August 7 2013, 03:28 PM   #53
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I would agree with that, especially since the longer connecting dorsals and pylons to key components on a Connie offer that design higher vulnerability than the Miranda, both from attack and general torque and stress to the space frame over time from extended service (probably a major deciding factor in decommissioning the whole lot of them). SF engineers would likely have to compensate for those vulnerabilities with a stronger internal support structure and stronger hull plating/armor, which would increase gross mass tonnage and ergo decrease maneuverability.
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Old August 7 2013, 05:48 PM   #54
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Mage wrote: View Post
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the model of the Constitution was a b*tch to work with in terms of shooting, and that models like the Miranda and Excelsior a lot easier. Hence they were used more in TNG since there wasn't any CGI yet. Could be wrong though, could be the TOS Connie I read that about, not the Movie Connie.
No, you're correct. ILM always felt that the TMP Enterprise was always too large and cumbersome to film. That was the whole point of building the Excelsior: the original intent was that it would eventually be Kirk's new ship for future films.

But ILM only worked on "Encounter at Farpoint." By "The Battle," the TNG producers were quite ready to have their VFX department film the TMP Enterprise as the Stargazer.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:01 PM   #55
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I'm more inclined to think the Khitomer Accords was just an agreement to end hostilities and aggression between nations, but otherwise left their forces intact, with the Constitution-class nearing the end of its design life anyway at the time (I don't think the design entirely went away after Star Trek VI, but no new Constitution-class vessels were built).

From Star Trek TUC:

SPOCK:...Due to their enormous military budget, the Klingon economy does not have the resources to combat this catastrophe. Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.
CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?
SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?
C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...


From this it is clear that the diplomatic talks that follow have as their primary focus, not just an agreement of peace, but also a reduction in military assets. Now only 'space stations and starbases' are specifically mentioned in dialogue, but the Military Aide's comment about 'mothballing the Starfleet' suggests that ships might also be under consideration.


CharlieZardoz wrote: View Post
Obviously the Klingons figured out how to fix their atmosphere and are doing just fine by the 24th century so the whole reduction of arms thing isn't likely.
As the film makes clear, the Klingons do not have resources to survive. It is only through downsizing their massive military that they can free up the resources they need. The Klingons survive to the 24th century precisely because they reduced their armed forces.
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Old August 7 2013, 08:20 PM   #56
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

The Badger wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I'm more inclined to think the Khitomer Accords was just an agreement to end hostilities and aggression between nations, but otherwise left their forces intact, with the Constitution-class nearing the end of its design life anyway at the time (I don't think the design entirely went away after Star Trek VI, but no new Constitution-class vessels were built).

From Star Trek TUC:

SPOCK:...Due to their enormous military budget, the Klingon economy does not have the resources to combat this catastrophe. Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.
CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?
SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?
C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...


From this it is clear that the diplomatic talks that follow have as their primary focus, not just an agreement of peace, but also a reduction in military assets. Now only 'space stations and starbases' are specifically mentioned in dialogue, but the Military Aide's comment about 'mothballing the Starfleet' suggests that ships might also be under consideration.
I disagree with that. In fact, the only thing we can really gather from this exchange is the proposed elimination of outposts along the Neutral Zone, which indeed wouldn't be needed anymore if they were there solely as part of a military build up against the Klingons to begin with.

As far as "mothballing the Starfleet," that never appeared to be a serious question, with the C-in-C's response being that détente with the Klingons wouldn't effect Starfleet's other programs. At best, we can surmise the end of ships deployed to patrol the Neutral Zone, but otherwise there's nothing to suggest a reduction in Starfleet's overall forces.

If anything, Starfleet seemed to get bigger after Star Trek VI...
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Old August 7 2013, 09:19 PM   #57
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

The C in C specifically mentions 'exploration and scientific programs'. If there was no possibility of the fleet being reduced, why be so precise? A blanket 'no' would have sufficed if the current levels would be unchanged.

And yes, by the time of TNG, Star Fleet was considerably larger. By that time the situation on the Klingon homeworld seems to have been resolved. The circumstances requiring a reduction of armed forces no longer apply.
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Old August 7 2013, 09:55 PM   #58
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Whether destroyed or distant, the supposed other starships would have been equally unavailable.
Evidence for this?
Umm, what? It's not a question subject to debate - it's a definition. If a ship is distant, then it's not present.

Plenty of Trek hinges on ships not being able to reach locations in time, certainly not hundreds of them. Earth isn't a location more likely to enjoy starship presence than others - it's a location perhaps even less likely to enjoy it, judging by basically all the Earth-centric episodes.

Huh? What antiquities? The oldest on-screen canonical ship type we see in the battle is the Saratoga, and even she's not all that old. Every other ship was either from the Galaxy family, an Ambassador, an Excelsior, an Oberth or a ship consisting of what might be parts from a Connie. With the possible exception of the last ship, all these classes are still in regular use in TNG.
Actually, most of the ship types seen at Wolf 359 were never seen again, except languishing at Qualor II. This included lots of "TOS movie era" designs in the form of Excelsior prototypes, plus of course the Miranda which is certainly antiquated in comparison with what is seen in TNG era Trek.

Ok, let's play devil's advocate and say that 40 ships was all Starfleet could spare at the time.
Why? I have no interest in that. What I'm saying is that out of the 8,000 ships that Starfleet could spare, none bar forty could reach Wolf 359, right next door to Earth - and those forty weren't exactly the cream of the cream, as we know Earth's vicinity is generally devoid of top starships (because they have better things to do).

Defending Earth does not involve being at Earth in the general case. You meet the enemy in enemy territory, or as close to it as possible. This is impossible only when the enemy is extremely fast, as was the case with the Borg - and even then, Starfleet chose to make its stand between the enemy and Earth, not at Earth.

Even if the majority of the DS9 fleets were made up of older ships that were reactivated, then why didn't Starfleet reactivate them for the Wolf 359 battle?
Because they were mothballed in places like Qualor II, far away from Earth.

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Old August 7 2013, 09:56 PM   #59
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

The Badger wrote: View Post
The C in C specifically mentions 'exploration and scientific programs'. If there was no possibility of the fleet being reduced, why be so precise?
Just a reminder that Starfleet didn't exist solely to fight Klingons.
A blanket 'no' would have sufficed if the current levels would be unchanged.
Actually, the statement given sufficed. If anything, the Khitomer Accords would allow Starfleet to reallocate resources originally ear-marked for fighting Klingons elsewhere, really.
And yes, by the time of TNG, Star Fleet was considerably larger. By that time the situation on the Klingon homeworld seems to have been resolved. The circumstances requiring a reduction of armed forces no longer apply.
A case can also be made that the Khitomer Accords never required Starfleet to reduce its forces at all.
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Old August 7 2013, 10:48 PM   #60
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
Umm, what? It's not a question subject to debate - it's a definition. If a ship is distant, then it's not present.
My mistake. When you said "distant ships" I thought you were referring to the rest of Starfleet instead of the 40 ships sent to Wolf 359.

Plenty of Trek hinges on ships not being able to reach locations in time, certainly not hundreds of them.
Why not? Wolf 359 is only 8 light years from Earth. You mean to tell me that there weren't any more than 40 ships within rock-throwing distance to the core of Federation space, galactically speaking?

This included lots of "TOS movie era" designs in the form of Excelsior prototypes, plus of course the Miranda which is certainly antiquated in comparison with what is seen in TNG era Trek.
But those Excelsior prototypes weren't at Wolf 359. And the one Miranda we know of that was, was not all that old.

What I'm saying is that out of the 8,000 ships that Starfleet could spare, none bar forty could reach Wolf 359, right next door to Earth...
Which is inherently preposterous.

...and those forty weren't exactly the cream of the cream...
We only saw a fourth of the ships that actually participated in the battle. And the ones we did see were with only a few exceptions TNG-era designs.

...as we know Earth's vicinity is generally devoid of top starships (because they have better things to do).
We don't know that at all.

Because they were mothballed in places like Qualor II, far away from Earth.
So you think Qualor II was Starfleet's only surplus depot? And how do you know that Qualor II is far from Earth?
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