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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old August 6 2013, 09:52 PM   #46
TJ Sinclair
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Re: As for the Master

Starkers wrote: View Post
See I think Cumberbatch would have been way too similar to Smith. I actually think someone like Capaldi would have made a good Master for Smith, as Moffat says Smith is an old man in a young man's body whilst Capaldi will be a young man in an old man's body, and that's the dynamic Id have like to have seen....
The only similarities between Cumberbatch and Smith would have been their age and height. Cumberbatch's Holmes and Smith's Doctor are similar, but both actors have range beyond that, and Cumberbatch wouldn't have been playing the Master as Sherlock, certainly. The physical similarity would have added to the mystique of their differing personalities. At least, that's how it looks in my mind. Something more like his John Harrison persona, but with much more charisma and personality.
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Old August 6 2013, 10:19 PM   #47
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Re: As for the Master

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
Seriously, no love for Gary Oldman?
Plenty of love here!

Actually, I don't think that's a bad idea! Although I think he could also be alright as the doctor himself!
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Old August 7 2013, 02:41 AM   #48
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Re: As for the Master

Tom Hiddleston would make a great Master maybe a bit low-key but he'd a great counter to Peter Capaldi's Doctor.
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Old August 7 2013, 03:12 AM   #49
sttngfan1701d
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Re: As for the Master

I said it before and I'll say it again. I know it would never happen, but Daniel Craig for a one-off appearance as The Master would be amazing.
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Old August 7 2013, 04:14 AM   #50
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Re: As for the Master

sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
I said it before and I'll say it again. I know it would never happen, but Daniel Craig for a one-off appearance as The Master would be amazing.
In what possible way? He has all the charisma of a common street thug.
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Old August 7 2013, 04:51 AM   #51
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Re: As for the Master

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
I said it before and I'll say it again. I know it would never happen, but Daniel Craig for a one-off appearance as The Master would be amazing.
In what possible way? He has all the charisma of a common street thug.
Over-the-top charisma did in John Simm's performance IMO. If they're going to do the Master again, they should go in a different direction. Make him cold, calculating. Make him like Professor Moriarty. Make him someone who you think COULD defeat the Doctor. Daniel Craig would kill in that. And remember that he's an ACTOR and can lighten the character if required.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:53 AM   #52
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Re: As for the Master

sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
Over-the-top charisma did in John Simm's performance IMO.
Over-the-top and charisma have nothing to do with each other. Simm was the very much the former, which for the most part, overpowered the latter.

If they're going to do the Master again, they should go in a different direction. Make him cold, calculating. Make him like Professor Moriarty. Make him someone who you think COULD defeat the Doctor.
Yes exactly. Benedict Cumberbatch. James Nesbitt. Richard E. Grant. Lennie James. David Warner. Gary Oldman. Derek Jacobi. Clive Owen. Heck, even Michael Caine.

Daniel Craig would kill in that.
No, he'd be miscast, flat and over his head. It'd be like casting Ray Liotta as Jafar.

And remember that he's an ACTOR and can lighten the character if required.
He's an actor, but he's a rather limited one. And yes, I've seen him in many roles outside Bond. He's good at what he does. Which is the "tough guy," generally. But he's got about as much range as the Rock, arguably less. He's dangerous, sure, but as a blunt instrument. He would make an absolutely terrible criminal mastermind. He's a thug, a troglodyte, that's all he ever plays. And that is in no way the Master.
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Old August 7 2013, 07:02 AM   #53
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Re: As for the Master

I could maybe get on board with some of what you say, but when you call Daniel Craig a very limited actor after you mention Michael Caine as a possibility for The Master, I don't know where you're coming from. Michael Caine's range has deserted him as he's aged. These days he's very limited. Benedict Cumberbatch is limited as well.

But since you go on and on about Craig, it seems as if you have a personal bias against him. Don't quit your day job and become a casting director, then.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
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Old August 7 2013, 07:14 AM   #54
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Re: As for the Master

sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
I could maybe get on board with some of what you say, but when you call Daniel Craig a very limited actor after you mention Michael Caine as a possibility for The Master, I don't know where you're coming from. Michael Caine's range has deserted him as he's aged. These days he's very limited.
He's limited only in the roles he gets, not in what he's capable of. Have you seen him recently in anything outside of Christopher Nolan films? Like many older actors who still work in Hollywood, they've shoved him into a very limited type of role. But see some of the indy films he's done lately, like Harry Brown or Is Anybody There? and tell me that he's "limited."

Benedict Cumberbatch is limited as well.
Again, have you only seen him in Sherlock and Into Darkness? How about The War Horse or Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy? How about To the Ends of the Earth or The Last Enemy or Small Island? These are quite different roles from his Sherlock, and he's superb in them. Range? Check.

But since you go on and on about Craig, it seems as if you have a personal bias against him. Don't quit your day job and become a casting director, then.
My only bias against him in this regard is that he's never shown range outside his typical roles, of which the Master is far afield. Name one role that Craig has done that shows he has greater range than "thug" as an actor. Like I said, he's good at what he does. But he's never shown himself capable of doing anything else.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
Obviously, unless you can provide evidence to support your thesis.
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Old August 7 2013, 07:31 AM   #55
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Re: As for the Master

I've seen everything you list there for Cumberbatch. I've seen about everything the guy has done since 2005. He's stiff. I agree with you that he would make a good Master, but he is a limited actor.

I haven't seen the two films you mention for Caine. I'll check them out.

Your inability to think outside the box when it comes to an actor's suitability to a role isn't my problem, so why do I need to "support" my "thesis"? We're going to disagree on this all day, so there's no point.
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Old August 7 2013, 08:04 AM   #56
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Re: As for the Master

sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
I've seen everything you list there for Cumberbatch. I've seen about everything the guy has done since 2005. He's stiff. I agree with you that he would make a good Master, but he is a limited actor.

I haven't seen the two films you mention for Caine. I'll check them out.

Your inability to think outside the box when it comes to an actor's suitability to a role isn't my problem, so why do I need to "support" my "thesis"? We're going to disagree on this all day, so there's no point.
I have an inability to think outside the box because I can't see an actor who has only ever played brainless tough guy roles play a brainy mastermind? I love Dwayne Johnson, but I wouldn't cast him as Lex Luthor.

Is it failing to think outside the box to know that Vin Diesel would make a lousy JFK? Or that Jason Statham wouldn't be the right guy to play Sherlock Holmes? Or that Arnold Schwarzenegger wouldn't be a good Captain Von Trapp? These are actors who are known for playing a certain type of role, and don't really venture outside that territory.

We only know actors by what they've done. Sometimes that's powerful enough to show us they can do more. Matt Smith's small role as Jim in The Ruby in the Smoke was nothing like the Doctor, but I could see the potential there.

But what Craig has done, the body of his career, has shown me he can play one type of role. I've never seen him try to do anything else. Let me see Craig play something off type and do it well, and I'd give him a shot. When has he? If Craig has ever wanted to play something different, I'm sure he's had the chance. Name one performance that has shown us something more than "tough guy." Please. I'd like to see it.

You think Cumberbatch is limited, fine. Maybe I'm seeing degrees of subtlety and nuance in his performances that you aren't, or maybe I'm just reading into things. But in any case, limited or not, he's shown that he can play the same type of role as the Master. It's in his wheelhouse. But on the other hand, I wouldn't cast him as Jim Kirk or Wally West. That's not failing to think outside the box, that's recognizing what an actor's strengths are.
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Old August 7 2013, 08:16 AM   #57
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Re: As for the Master

Craig did not play a "brainless tough guy" in Sylvia, Archangel, or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I haven't seen every movie the guy has done but I'm sure there are other examples.

I can see him as a cold, calculating, dangerous Master with a dry wit. You can't because you're biased. It's as simple as that.

A already agreed with you that The Master would suit Cumberbatch as well.
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Old August 7 2013, 08:34 AM   #58
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Re: As for the Master

sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
Craig did not play a "brainless tough guy" in Sylvia, Archangel, or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I haven't seen every movie the guy has done but I'm sure there are other examples.

I can see him as a cold, calculating, dangerous Master with a dry wit. You can't because you're biased. It's as simple as that.
I'm not biased, I'm going with what I've seen. Sharpe, The Ice House, Layer Cake, Elizabeth, Road to Perdition, Munich, Infamous, Our Friends In the North, The Golden Compass, Defiance, Cowboys & Aliens, and his Bond films.

But I haven't seen the three films you mention, just as you haven't seen the two I mentioned with Michael Caine. I asked several times for you to name films where he wasn't playing a "tough guy." If he's not playing a role like in Layer Cake or Bond, I'll be happy to give them a chance. I always gave Archangel a pass because I read the book, and the movie seemed like a watered-down, generic spy film adaptation. Dragon Tattoo's been on my list for reasons other than Craig, just haven't gotten around to it.

So, I'll give them a watch soon, and see if I can picture him in a more thoughtful role than he's shown in the majority of his film career.
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Old August 7 2013, 08:42 AM   #59
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Re: As for the Master

Why not have a weird couple episodes where the Doctor gets trapped on the other side of the time war and he meets Geoffrey Beever's Master who was fucking chilling last month in the Companion Chronicles.
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Old August 7 2013, 09:18 AM   #60
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Re: As for the Master

DWF wrote: View Post
Tom Hiddleston would make a great Master maybe a bit low-key but he'd a great counter to Peter Capaldi's Doctor.
It's funny, I remember when Hiddleston was cast as Loki a lot of people saying 'oh, David Tennant or John Simm would've been so much better!'

@ TJ, I would suggest you watch Craig in Enduring Love, Sylvia, Our Friends In The North (opposite Chris Eccleston no less), The Mother and Some Voices to see him step outside the hard man ghetto.
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