RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,962
Posts: 5,391,875
Members: 24,720
Currently online: 608
Newest member: Amywholoveswine

TrekToday headlines

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Free Star Trek Trexels Game
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 6 2013, 12:29 PM   #31
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
Whether destroyed or distant, the supposed other starships would have been equally unavailable.
Evidence for this?

We did see some antiquities in the Wolf 359 collection of ships; speculating that they were activated to compensate for the lack of active-service ships near Earth helps accommodate the oddball designs.
Huh? What antiquities? The oldest on-screen canonical ship type we see in the battle is the Saratoga, and even she's not all that old. Every other ship was either from the Galaxy family, an Ambassador, an Excelsior, an Oberth or a ship consisting of what might be parts from a Connie. With the possible exception of the last ship, all these classes are still in regular use in TNG.

But that interpretation seems unsupportable, as the fleet of forty was mentioned in the same breath with pleas for Klingon and even Romulan assistance. Forty'ish is all they could manage, and that was apparently with scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Ok, let's play devil's advocate and say that 40 ships was all Starfleet could spare at the time. If Starfleet considered the Borg to be such a huge threat, than this would imply that Starfleet didn't have all that many ships to begin with. But as we see in DS9, that isn't the case at all. Even if the majority of the DS9 fleets were made up of older ships that were reactivated, then why didn't Starfleet reactivate them for the Wolf 359 battle?

Sounds like a much "noisier" alternative, one less likely to go under the admittedly low-grade radar of the Zakdorn gatekeeper.
I would think that if the Zakdorn are so stupid as to not even realize the Tripoli had been replaced by an alien ship that constantly moved in and out of the depot simply by looking at a visual record, then tractoring the ship out of there wouldn't have been any different than piloting it out of there.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 12:30 PM   #32
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Star Trek ship registries don't make sense. They're not consecutive. Constellation had registry of NCC-1017 and it's an obvious Connie. You cannot conclude things from registries.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 02:12 PM   #33
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Longinus wrote: View Post
Star Trek ship registries don't make sense. They're not consecutive.
I fail to see why they shouldn't make sense just because they are not consecutive?
First two digits indicate design series (18 for Miranda Class, 19 for Soyuz Class, 20 for Excelsior Class), last two digits indicate contact code.

Contact codes are inherited by newer starships once the previous one has been destroyed or is considered permanently lost (NCC-1664 Excalibur > NCC-1764 Defiant > NCC-1864 Reliant).

Longinus wrote: View Post
Constellation had registry of NCC-1017 and it's an obvious Connie.
Of course it's a Connie, because Connie is the 20th Century nickname for Constellation.

Regarding the registry I belong to the "school" that believes that Matt Decker's starship was named and numbered to commemorate the achievements of a previous starship with that name and number. YMMV.

Longinus wrote: View Post
You cannot conclude things from registries.
Yes I can, at least in the 23rd Century. For whatever reasons the system was altered and/or modified in the late 23rd Century is a different story.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 05:14 PM   #34
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Not remotely true? So I read something from an alternate timeline?
It's been years, so I'm not sure where it was, but I know I remember seeing something in print - not online - where Roddenberry said No Vulcans in the main cast, and no Connie, just to keep TNG separate. Whether that was followed or not, doesn't mean he never said or intended it.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 05:32 PM   #35
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: With the Dead Poets
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

As I understand it, according to details mentioned in Star Trek: Where No One Has Gone Before, Gene originally didn't want any ties to TOS when TNG was being conceived. It was to be a completely new series, which meant no Vulcans, Klingons etc. The other staff at the time eventually talked him out of that preference. I don't recall any specific ban on using the Constitution/Refit model or references, but I do recall Roddenberry didn't like the idea of Kirk and company receiving an entirely new ship with an 1800 series registry for the Phase II/TMP era because he acknowledged the Enterprise as a character in its own right, and felt the ship would be "forgotten" by the audience if the crew got a new one.

As for W359, the dialogue in BOBW does imply that the 40-ship fleet was thrown together as an emergency measure, but Hansen also says it was "just for starters" and the Klingons were sending ships that might not arrive soon enough. Perhaps it's not quite accurate to say these measures amounted to scraping the bottom, but were just hastily organized.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 06:49 PM   #36
The Badger
Fleet Captain
 
The Badger's Avatar
 
Location: Im in ur Tardis, violating ur canon.
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I've speculated elsewhere that as part of the Khittomer Accords in TUC Star Fleet agreed to a strategic reduction in the numbers of heavy cruisers. As each new Excelsior comes into service, an older Constitution is withdrawn to keep numbers within treaty levels. As the Fleet has no replacements for the Miranda planned at this time, they remain in service.

As I say, pure speculation on my part. But it's an explanation.
The Badger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 08:29 PM   #37
Longinus
Commander
 
Longinus's Avatar
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

The Badger wrote: View Post
I've speculated elsewhere that as part of the Khittomer Accords in TUC Star Fleet agreed to a strategic reduction in the numbers of heavy cruisers. As each new Excelsior comes into service, an older Constitution is withdrawn to keep numbers within treaty levels. As the Fleet has no replacements for the Miranda planned at this time, they remain in service.

As I say, pure speculation on my part. But it's an explanation.
It is a good explanation, actually.
Longinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 09:32 PM   #38
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Longinus wrote: View Post
Star Trek ship registries don't make sense. They're not consecutive. Constellation had registry of NCC-1017 and it's an obvious Connie. You cannot conclude things from registries.
I wouldn't say they don't make any sense at all; I'd rather say that Starfleet has a registry scheme the logic of which we simply aren't aware of. There are times when it seems registries are consecutive (mostly registries after 7XXXX), and then there are times when it seems they aren't (2XXXX for the Ambassador and 4XXXX for the Excelsior when the former class is clearly newer).

Darkwing wrote: View Post
Not remotely true? So I read something from an alternate timeline?
It's been years, so I'm not sure where it was, but I know I remember seeing something in print - not online - where Roddenberry said No Vulcans in the main cast, and no Connie, just to keep TNG separate. Whether that was followed or not, doesn't mean he never said or intended it.
My apologies; I should have been clearer. What I meant to say was that while it's entirely possible that Gene didn't want to see Connies in TNG, what he wanted and what the people setting the budget wanted were two entirely different things. We were super-close to getting a Connie for Picard's Stargazer simply because the budget didn't allow for a new ship model, and Gene would have had zero say about it.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 10:00 PM   #39
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Longinus wrote: View Post
The Badger wrote: View Post
I've speculated elsewhere that as part of the Khittomer Accords in TUC Star Fleet agreed to a strategic reduction in the numbers of heavy cruisers. As each new Excelsior comes into service, an older Constitution is withdrawn to keep numbers within treaty levels. As the Fleet has no replacements for the Miranda planned at this time, they remain in service.

As I say, pure speculation on my part. But it's an explanation.
It is a good explanation, actually.
I'm not a big fan on the idea of the then-vulnerable Klingons dictating how many and what kind of ships the more secure Federation has.

I'm more inclined to think the Khitomer Accords was just an agreement to end hostilities and aggression between nations, but otherwise left their forces intact, with the Constitution-class nearing the end of its design life anyway at the time (I don't think the design entirely went away after Star Trek VI, but no new Constitution-class vessels were built).
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 10:15 PM   #40
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

The Badger wrote: View Post
I've speculated elsewhere that as part of the Khittomer Accords in TUC Star Fleet agreed to a strategic reduction in the numbers of heavy cruisers. As each new Excelsior comes into service, an older Constitution is withdrawn to keep numbers within treaty levels. As the Fleet has no replacements for the Miranda planned at this time, they remain in service.

As I say, pure speculation on my part. But it's an explanation.
A big problem with that theory is that it was established in dialogue that the Miranda class (i.e. the Reliant) is faster and more heavily armed than the Constitution class (i.e. the Enterprise). Logic would dictate that based on your theory, the Klingons would want the Miranda class to be reduced, not the Constitution class.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 11:37 PM   #41
CharlieZardoz
Lieutenant
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I don't really buy into the Khittomer accords reduction of Connie's either mainly because while I love Star Trek VI, the plot doesn't really make much sense. Obviously the Klingons figured out how to fix their atmosphere and are doing just fine by the 24th century so the whole reduction of arms thing isn't likely. Besides the Federation are explorers not warriors with warships right?

The most logical conclusion was that the connie was just an old design and eventual testbed for new designs such as the Miranda, Constellation, etc. and by the 24th century production of the class had ceased. Regarding the connie at wolf 359, who knows. Maybe there was one lurking about (other than the Republic) taken out of mothball and yes it did seem like those 40 ships were scrapped together rather hastily from the few ships in the immediate vicinity. I mean why send a Challenger and Freedom class against the borg?? Haha Also when they finally hit Earth you saw no ships at all!!

I think in Season 3 TNG the writers simply wrote with the idea that either Federation ships were far out in space or just not that many (maybe a few 1000) The real world explanation for that was simply not having many studio models. The models that were made for Wolf 359 had been created by the model makers for a script that explicitly called for "smaller ships than the Galaxy." However, by DS9 and First Contact cgi made bigger fleets possible and thus the Federation fleet sized and strength got retconned.
CharlieZardoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 12:02 AM   #42
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I just always assumed the Constitutions were phased out as the Excelsior and Constellation classes were coming in line. With the new classes being built, there was no point in repairing a heavily damaged Constitution when those resources could be better used building a new ship. With the Miranda classes, they were smaller vessels, simple to build and easily modifiable, so they continued to be manufactured and upgraded.

Personally I liked their use in the TNG/DS9 era. It showed that the Federation was getting so big, that they had to keep the once front line ships in service as cargo ships, and routine patrol ships instead of the exploration vessels they were. During the Dominion War their presence showed how desperate the Federation was to put every hull they could on the front lines, even if those poor Mirandas didn't stand a chance against the Jem'Hadar.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 12:21 AM   #43
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

My theory on registry numbers is that when a new class of ship is authorized a block of numbers is reserved for it. But if new ships of that class are needed, for whatever reason, once that block of numbers is exhausted, the ship is simply assigned an available number.

This explains both sequential numbers and the occasional "wild card".
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 12:30 AM   #44
Roboturner913
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
A big problem with that theory is that it was established in dialogue that the Miranda class (i.e. the Reliant) is faster and more heavily armed than the Constitution class (i.e. the Enterprise).
When????????
Roboturner913 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 12:37 AM   #45
137th Gebirg
Rear Admiral
 
137th Gebirg's Avatar
 
Location: Who is John Galt?
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

^^^ I think he's referring to Spock's statement from TWOK when he said "they can outrun us, and outgun us", which was perhaps due to Enterprise's heavily disabled state after their first engagement with Reliant (unless there was some other reference I missed). This may not always be the case with two such vessels running at 100%.

As far as speed is concerned, they both seem relatively identical, although the Miranda may have less mass overall, making it slightly more maneuverable. As far as weaponry is concerned, the Miranda does seem to have a distinct advantage over a Connie with their mega phaser emplacements on the roll bar, plus two rear facing torpedo tubes, neither of which the Connie seems to have. It could be argued that a Miranda is more heavily armed.
__________________
Gebirgswick - Ind, Tra, Sec & Env.

Last edited by 137th Gebirg; August 7 2013 at 12:52 AM.
137th Gebirg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.