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Old August 5 2013, 09:04 PM   #16
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Well the last time we say a Constitution Class on screen puts the date at circa 2267. In the graveyard at Wolf 359. So it is possible a few are still active.
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Old August 5 2013, 09:36 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

...Or then the partial Constitution at Wolf 359 was a museum specimen dragged out for this final battle, much like "Unification" suggests one can quickly reactivate and warp out a mothballed starship (and like Sternbach and Okuda suggest the Constellations are preserved as "activatable" museum pieces). Probably a very expensive way to conserve ships for mere display, but the benefits may be almost worth it.

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Old August 5 2013, 09:48 PM   #18
MacLeod
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Possible.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:38 PM   #19
E-DUB
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Most likely the primary purpose of the Connies was taken by the Excelsior class and some Connie hulls were converted to Mirandas.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:20 PM   #20
Roboturner913
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I would imagine there is some economy of design that makes the Mirandas so successful. Compact design makes it a low profile target, also maybe eliminates a lot of the weaker structural points that might be a problem with the Constitution.

It is very possible that the Miranda is simply a better all-around ship.
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Old August 6 2013, 02:42 AM   #21
CharlieZardoz
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I think a lot of the "real life" reason for the Miranda's in bulk on DS9 and TNG in general was the nature of the battle the writers wanted to portray. The Dominion had really big ships, middle sized ships and little fighter type ships. So you start to see a tiered dogfight kinda effect, the big slow ships lurking and the little quick ships darting in between. I think they wanted a Federation equivalent to the Klingon Bird of Prey or Jam Hadar fighter and since the Defiant was supposed to be a "new class" the only available small ship saved in CGI format was the Miranda class. I know people are critical of their presence in such an intense battle but to be fair I thought they fit in nicely and I'd rather be in one of those than an Excelsior class. Yeah the Miranda bought it easy but only if they were caught while the midsized midpaced excelsior and akira classes were looking like swiss cheese through most of the battle scenes.

As to why the Constitution class was not used in TNG it just sounds to me that someone (maybe Rick Berman) made a decision that the ship design would not be utilized due to its familiarity with the original crew (sounds fishy to me) and the in universe explanation was that it was an outdated design. While I don't find any real rationale to support this I did hear once that the model of the refit connie was a big heavy pain to film and possibly was in a different studio?

Regarding "in universe" it does seem that the only ships by the 2370's to be active were ships with 5 number registries. And with the exception of a few lumbering stalwarts (The Repulse, Victory, Trial, and The Republic) the vast majority of 4 digit registry ships were retired or mothballed (like the Constellation class) sometime prior to the start of TNG. I do know that someone (maybe Okuda) wanted all TNG era ships to have 5 numbers and I think the general idea was that those first ncc-500-10,000 ships were built in the 23rd and very early 24th century making them all pretty old by the Dominion wars. Since it seems that the Constitution class run ended somewhere in the 2000's and the Miranda's up to 30,000 they were old but not quite as archaic as the connie. That said it does bring up the odd question how so many more ships were built in only 70-80 years time. I mean 10,000-80,000 in just under 70 years?? That's like 7 times the ships of the prior century and means about 3 ships built every day lol

Last edited by CharlieZardoz; August 6 2013 at 03:42 AM.
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Old August 6 2013, 03:43 AM   #22
USS Excelsior
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

And in the Dominion war battles we didn't see any Sovereign class starships either.
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Old August 6 2013, 04:44 AM   #23
Dukhat
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
...Or then the partial Constitution at Wolf 359 was a museum specimen dragged out for this final battle, much like "Unification" suggests one can quickly reactivate and warp out a mothballed starship (and like Sternbach and Okuda suggest the Constellations are preserved as "activatable" museum pieces). Probably a very expensive way to conserve ships for mere display, but the benefits may be almost worth it.
But it wasn't a "final battle." It was Starfleet's primary engagement of the Borg. The only reason why you would take a ship out of mothballs is as a last resort because all your other ships have been destroyed. That's not what happened here. Starfleet sent only 40 ships to stop the Borg, it was only one battle, and all ships were destroyed at roughly the same time. In retrospect, it seems that Starfleet didn't consider them to be that much of a threat if that's all they sent, since the fleet consists of possibly thousands of ships, any one of which could have been used before they resorted to taking an old ship out of a museum. For the Dominion War, maybe, but certainly not for the Wolf 359 engagement.

As for the Connie at Wolf 359, it's never been canonically shown that it was a Connie; we only see part of a wrecked saucer in one scene and part of a secondary hull in another. The two parts may not have belonged to the same ship or even belonged to the Constitution class at all.

And if you're referring to the Tripoli from "Unification," I was always under the impression that the Romulans or whoever was piloting that raider ship simply tractor beamed or just destroyed the ship before taking it's place, not that they reactivated it and flew it away.
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Old August 6 2013, 08:14 AM   #24
C.E. Evans
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I tend to think the Miranda-class was just simply a very versatile design that could be used for just about any kind of mission when necessary. A reason for its longevity could be that its onboard systems can be easily upgraded to keep up with the fleet (it may still use phaser banks rather than arrays, but their output could be comparable with other 24th-Century designs; its computer system may now use current isolinear technology rather than 23rd-Century duotronics or multitronics).
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Old August 6 2013, 09:02 AM   #25
Roboturner913
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Also, there is no onscreen evidence to suggest that the Mirandas existed in the time before TMP. In fact, if the Enterprise refit was a testbed for a bunch of new technology and ideas (as seems to be the case), then it's very likely the Mirandas were entirely new ships grown out of that leap.

That would put their origin around 2280 rather than around 2245 or so.

The thing that always intrigues me is we then see a bunch of Miranda class ships with NCC numbers in the 20K-32K range - build numbers from right around the same time as the Ambassador class and its variants come into play. This combined with the very few numbers of Ambassador-class ships suggests, at least to me, that the Ambassador and Ambassador variants were all fairly unsuccessful so Starfleet looked to some older, more proven hull types like the Miranda to lean on as support ships. That could also be the case for the Oberths, which we see pretty far into TNG's run and even a bit into DS9.
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Old August 6 2013, 09:49 AM   #26
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Darkwing wrote: View Post
I believe I recall Roddenberry making "no Connies" an edict in early TNG, just as he decided the main ensemble should not include a Vulcan.
I remember reading someing ages ago about the early development of TNG, which did include a female Vulcan in the cast as a descendant of Spock--as a direct link between TOS abnd TNG. It didn't get much further through the development, though I'm sure there was a possible actress they had in mind for the role.

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
And in the Dominion war battles we didn't see any Sovereign class starships either.
We have no evidence there are more than two Sovereign's built (the Sovereign itself and the E-E). Both of which could have been assigned the duties of several other ships needed on the frontlines (such as how in Insurrection the E-E was really more of a status symbol, carrying out lots of other missions away from the fighting).
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Old August 6 2013, 10:03 AM   #27
Timo
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

But it wasn't a "final battle." It was Starfleet's primary engagement of the Borg. The only reason why you would take a ship out of mothballs is as a last resort because all your other ships have been destroyed. That's not what happened here.
Whether destroyed or distant, the supposed other starships would have been equally unavailable. We did see some antiquities in the Wolf 359 collection of ships; speculating that they were activated to compensate for the lack of active-service ships near Earth helps accommodate the oddball designs.

In addition to or instead of museum pieces, these designs could also have been one-off prototypes or test rigs, found in abundance at the busy shipyards of Sol - this would match the real-world identity of many of the models.

it seems that Starfleet didn't consider them to be that much of a threat if that's all they sent
But that interpretation seems unsupportable, as the fleet of forty was mentioned in the same breath with pleas for Klingon and even Romulan assistance. Forty'ish is all they could manage, and that was apparently with scraping the bottom of the barrel.

As for the Connie at Wolf 359, it's never been canonically shown that it was a Connie
Very true. There's room for the Belknap class in canon yet, if we want to.

And if you're referring to the Tripoli from "Unification," I was always under the impression that the Romulans or whoever was piloting that raider ship simply tractor beamed or just destroyed the ship before taking it's place, not that they reactivated it and flew it away.
Sounds like a much "noisier" alternative, one less likely to go under the admittedly low-grade radar of the Zakdorn gatekeeper.

Also, there is no onscreen evidence to suggest that the Mirandas existed in the time before TMP.
...Other than perhaps the existence of a 1800-range registry in "Court Martial" already.

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Old August 6 2013, 11:19 AM   #28
Longinus
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
Also, there is no onscreen evidence to suggest that the Mirandas existed in the time before TMP. In fact, if the Enterprise refit was a testbed for a bunch of new technology and ideas (as seems to be the case), then it's very likely the Mirandas were entirely new ships grown out of that leap.

That would put their origin around 2280 rather than around 2245 or so.
I always assumed that this was the case. Miranda was a mass production model, Connie-refit was basically an expensive prototype built on older hull.
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Old August 6 2013, 11:22 AM   #29
Longinus
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
But that interpretation seems unsupportable, as the fleet of forty was mentioned in the same breath with pleas for Klingon and even Romulan assistance. Forty'ish is all they could manage, and that was apparently with scraping the bottom of the barrel.
I always felt that there was a disconnect between TNG and DS9 portrayal of Starfleet. In TNG forty ships was a lot and losing them was a major setback. In DS9 they had fleets of nearly thousand ships.
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Old August 6 2013, 11:32 AM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
Also, there is no onscreen evidence to suggest that the Mirandas existed in the time before TMP.
I say this depends on what you consider onscreen evidence.

In one of his Enterprise pre-production sketches Matt Jefferies stated that the "17" in "1701" referred to the Enterprise being a member of the 17th Federation starship ("cruiser" in the TOS pre-production stage) design series.

By that logic (from a TOS and TOS movies' point of view) that would make the Reliant (NCC-1864) a starship of the 18th design series.

Interestingly and "thanks" to HD resolution, the starship status chart in "Court Martial" clearly identifies the erroneous NCC-1631 to be actually NCC-1831.

Thus, IMHO, there is TOS evidence that the 18th starship design series (i.e. Miranda Class) already existed during the era of TOS but, of course, remained unseen.

It is my belief (I wrote an extensive treatise on the subject) that the Oberth Class is actually much older than usually assumed and the missing design link between the Miranda Class and the Starship Class the Enterprise and her sister ships belong to.

Bob
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