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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old August 5 2013, 09:12 PM   #91
bullethead
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


oh, of course not. Because the Baku are pretty White people.
It would've been interesting to see how people reacted had the situation been reversed. That the ugly people were trying to defend their homes from the pretty white people.

have you seen Redlettermedia or TVtropes' take on INS?

They bring up the fact that Picard reverses his position from "journey's end," and they point out that the writing and juxtaposition of the two makes it look(rather unfortunately for the character) like Picard did so because in THAT case it was non-Whites being removed, whereas in THIS case it was Whites being removed.


And of course in "journey's end" there was no hot White woman for Picard to rescue.
Even SFDebris brings up the whole white people thing (he goes even further, calling them elves). He doesn't bring up the race issue with the relocation, but does call out Picard's hypocrisy regarding the Maquis though.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:08 PM   #92
Hartzilla2007
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

bullethead wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

It would've been interesting to see how people reacted had the situation been reversed. That the ugly people were trying to defend their homes from the pretty white people.

have you seen Redlettermedia or TVtropes' take on INS?

They bring up the fact that Picard reverses his position from "journey's end," and they point out that the writing and juxtaposition of the two makes it look(rather unfortunately for the character) like Picard did so because in THAT case it was non-Whites being removed, whereas in THIS case it was Whites being removed.


And of course in "journey's end" there was no hot White woman for Picard to rescue.
Even SFDebris brings up the whole white people thing (he goes even further, calling them elves). He doesn't bring up the race issue with the relocation, but does call out Picard's hypocrisy regarding the Maquis though.
Yeah thats bullshit.

1) The Maquis colonies were federation colonies, the Ba'ku were not a federation planet.

2) Everyone seems to forget that when the colonists weren't going along with the move Picard tried to get his bosses to call it off.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:11 PM   #93
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
2) Everyone seems to forget that when the colonists weren't going along with the move Picard tried to get his bosses to call it off.
Then they threatened his command and he decided to play ball. So I guess he only stands by his convictions when a piece of ass is involved?
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Old August 5 2013, 10:44 PM   #94
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

BillJ wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


oh, of course not. Because the Baku are pretty White people.
It would've been interesting to see how people reacted had the situation been reversed. That the ugly people were trying to defend their homes from the pretty white people.
I for one would still be siding with the people who were trying to defend their homes.

But then again I don't imperialism.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:01 PM   #95
Vasquez Rocks
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

bullethead wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

It would've been interesting to see how people reacted had the situation been reversed. That the ugly people were trying to defend their homes from the pretty white people.

have you seen Redlettermedia or TVtropes' take on INS?

They bring up the fact that Picard reverses his position from "journey's end," and they point out that the writing and juxtaposition of the two makes it look(rather unfortunately for the character) like Picard did so because in THAT case it was non-Whites being removed, whereas in THIS case it was Whites being removed.


And of course in "journey's end" there was no hot White woman for Picard to rescue.
Even SFDebris brings up the whole white people thing (he goes even further, calling them elves). He doesn't bring up the race issue with the relocation, but does call out Picard's hypocrisy regarding the Maquis though.
Don't forget that Picard's actions, hormones and maybe even his judgement are all being affected from being on the planet. He might have reacted differently if it wasn't for that. Data even comments in the film about "certain rebellious instincts common to youth" may come out. Worf's "aggressive tendancies" for instance. None of the crew are really 100% themselves in this movie because of the metaphasic radiation.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:02 PM   #96
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
2) Everyone seems to forget that when the colonists weren't going along with the move Picard tried to get his bosses to call it off.
Then they threatened his command and he decided to play ball. So I guess he only stands by his convictions when a piece of ass is involved?
And according to Picard, so long as you wear the uniform you shut up and do what you're told.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:05 PM   #97
JarodRussell
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
2) Everyone seems to forget that when the colonists weren't going along with the move Picard tried to get his bosses to call it off.
Then they threatened his command and he decided to play ball. So I guess he only stands by his convictions when a piece of ass is involved?
And according to Picard, so long as you wear the uniform you shut up and do what you're told.
A) it was Wesley
B) the situation isn't really comparable because it was to prevent a war and not to score a luxury resource
C) meeting Kirk, fighting the Borg against orders and fighting a bloody war against the Dominion surely changed his point of view.
Heck, the events of that very episode might have changed his opinion.

Wesley is the hero of that episode, not Picard.



Did you agree with Picard or with Wesley when watching the episode? And did you agree with Dougherty or Picard when watching Insurrection?
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Old August 5 2013, 11:08 PM   #98
sonak
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


have you seen Redlettermedia or TVtropes' take on INS?

They bring up the fact that Picard reverses his position from "journey's end," and they point out that the writing and juxtaposition of the two makes it look(rather unfortunately for the character) like Picard did so because in THAT case it was non-Whites being removed, whereas in THIS case it was Whites being removed.


And of course in "journey's end" there was no hot White woman for Picard to rescue.
Even SFDebris brings up the whole white people thing (he goes even further, calling them elves). He doesn't bring up the race issue with the relocation, but does call out Picard's hypocrisy regarding the Maquis though.
Yeah thats bullshit.

1) The Maquis colonies were federation colonies, the Ba'ku were not a federation planet.

2) Everyone seems to forget that when the colonists weren't going along with the move Picard tried to get his bosses to call it off.

reason 1) is rather a legalistic distinction not an ethical one, and I don't think it's the basis on which Picard makes his stand. He talks about "forced relocation" and its effects, and in "journey's end" it was DEFINITELY forced relocation of a culture.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:09 PM   #99
SeerSGB
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Then they threatened his command and he decided to play ball. So I guess he only stands by his convictions when a piece of ass is involved?
And according to Picard, so long as you wear the uniform you shut up and do what you're told.
A) it was Wesley
B) the situation isn't really comparable because it was to prevent a war and not to score a luxury resource
C) meeting Kirk, fighting the Borg against orders and fighting the Dominion surely changed his point of view.
Heck, the events of that very episode might have changed his opinion.

Wesley is the hero of that episode, not Picard.
A resource that could cure billions suffering from a war is not a luxury resource. And it's certainly not something you put the sentiment and feelings of 600 over.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:13 PM   #100
JarodRussell
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A) it was Wesley
B) the situation isn't really comparable because it was to prevent a war and not to score a luxury resource
C) meeting Kirk, fighting the Borg against orders and fighting the Dominion surely changed his point of view.
Heck, the events of that very episode might have changed his opinion.

Wesley is the hero of that episode, not Picard.
A resource that could cure billions suffering from a war is not a luxury resource. And it's certainly not something you put the sentiment and feelings of 600 over.
Again, the film does not state the radiation won't be used. The only thing the film shows is that the Ba'ku are not killed because of greed.

The Federation can get all those wounded to the other side of the planet for shore leave.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:15 PM   #101
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

It might be if you truly believe in your principals. Sometimes upholding your principals/ethics etc.. can put you in a weaker position.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:23 PM   #102
SeerSGB
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


have you seen Redlettermedia or TVtropes' take on INS?

They bring up the fact that Picard reverses his position from "journey's end," and they point out that the writing and juxtaposition of the two makes it look(rather unfortunately for the character) like Picard did so because in THAT case it was non-Whites being removed, whereas in THIS case it was Whites being removed.


And of course in "journey's end" there was no hot White woman for Picard to rescue.
Even SFDebris brings up the whole white people thing (he goes even further, calling them elves). He doesn't bring up the race issue with the relocation, but does call out Picard's hypocrisy regarding the Maquis though.
Don't forget that Picard's actions, hormones and maybe even his judgement are all being affected from being on the planet. He might have reacted differently if it wasn't for that. Data even comments in the film about "certain rebellious instincts common to youth" may come out. Worf's "aggressive tendancies" for instance. None of the crew are really 100% themselves in this movie because of the metaphasic radiation.
That just makes Picard worse. Knowing he's being affect by the radiation and making the kinds of decisions he's making is just dangerous and irresponsible.


JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A) it was Wesley
B) the situation isn't really comparable because it was to prevent a war and not to score a luxury resource
C) meeting Kirk, fighting the Borg against orders and fighting the Dominion surely changed his point of view.
Heck, the events of that very episode might have changed his opinion.

Wesley is the hero of that episode, not Picard.
A resource that could cure billions suffering from a war is not a luxury resource. And it's certainly not something you put the sentiment and feelings of 600 over.
Again, the film does not state the radiation won't be used. The only thing the film shows is that the Ba'ku are not killed because of greed.

The Federation can get all those wounded to the other side of the planet for shore leave.
1) Some conditions (such as the S'ona) might take to long to treat via normal exposure. Otherwise, fuck the Baku, no need to even let them know you're there at all. Set up a colony or build an orbital station.

The biggest benefit comes from stripping the rings and using concentrated exposure.

2) You think the space-hippies would put up with that if they found out?
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Old August 5 2013, 11:45 PM   #103
Hartzilla2007
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A) it was Wesley
B) the situation isn't really comparable because it was to prevent a war and not to score a luxury resource
C) meeting Kirk, fighting the Borg against orders and fighting the Dominion surely changed his point of view.
Heck, the events of that very episode might have changed his opinion.

Wesley is the hero of that episode, not Picard.
A resource that could cure billions suffering from a war is not a luxury resource. And it's certainly not something you put the sentiment and feelings of 600 over.
Again, the film does not state the radiation won't be used. The only thing the film shows is that the Ba'ku are not killed because of greed.

The Federation can get all those wounded to the other side of the planet for shore leave.
Or better yet study the radiation to figure out how to make it themselves I mean the federation did used to have the technology to make planets.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
2) You think the space-hippies would put up with that if they found out?
Well seeing as they were never asked about the possibility we don't know.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:51 PM   #104
SeerSGB
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

A resource that could cure billions suffering from a war is not a luxury resource. And it's certainly not something you put the sentiment and feelings of 600 over.
Again, the film does not state the radiation won't be used. The only thing the film shows is that the Ba'ku are not killed because of greed.

The Federation can get all those wounded to the other side of the planet for shore leave.
Or better yet study the radiation to figure out how to make it themselves I mean the federation did used to have the technology to make planets.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
2) You think the space-hippies would put up with that if they found out?
Well seeing as they were never asked about the possibility we don't know.
Well, they thought they did. David sort of spilled protomatter into the matrix, so we don't know if Genesis would work as advertised or not. We know it makes short term, unstable, planets that like to go boom.

2) This is why the movie makes no sense. There's no need to even drag anyone into this. Just build a space station, build a colony elsewhere on the planet, and get on with life.
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Old August 6 2013, 12:53 AM   #105
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Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Yeah, unfortunately there are so many gaffes within the film itself that it's hard to have a well-founded discussion about it because so much comes down to information we're not given but realistically should have been.
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