RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,245
Posts: 5,438,898
Members: 24,958
Currently online: 421
Newest member: greatmovies

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 5 2013, 06:33 PM   #76
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure that's not what was needed, though I suppose the dialog is unclear enough that that's a possible interpretation...
From what I remember, they need whatever the end result of collecting the radiation would be to stay alive and be healed.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Not quite...Dougherty indicates that in the Son'as' current state simply settling on the planet won't heal them...essentially they need a concentrated burst.

Not excusing some of their actions, just saying that the idea that they can simply settle on the planet and everything will be fine is contradicted earlier in the film.
They could have apologized and returned to the planet 100 or 50 years before the film. They could have also accepted the fact that they simply grow old and die, like any other living being in the universe. They didn't. Instead they chose to take it by force.
That's the biggest plot hole in the whole damn movie. How the hell did the Luddite Baku kick the Son'a off the planet in the first place? And why didn't the Son'a just move to another continent and build their own technologically advanced society to spite the Luddites? Hell, if the Son'a were competent, there wouldn't even be a movie.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
For that matter, why even bother moving the Baku, just hoover up the damn rings and give 'em the bird as you warp off.
The film is really confusing on that point. It seems like the Son'a don't want to kill the Baku, but Ru'afo is totally willing to do it and most of his crew don't seem to give a fuck, so that whole part only works if the Federation is involved.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 06:44 PM   #77
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Probably the whole trying to take over their village thing.
How else were they suppose to effect change? It sounds like they were essentially prisoners to that way of life.
Considering they left to start their own interstellar empire, they were too much like prisoners now were they.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 06:55 PM   #78
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Considering they left to start their own interstellar empire, they were too much like prisoners now were they.
Ru'afo says they were exiled in the movie.

Exiled: expulsion from one's native land by authoritative decree.

Star Trek: Insurrection wrote:
SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.
They wouldn't have died slowly if they had simply been forced from the village. So the Ba'ku had to have the ability to force them from the planet and possibly the Briar Patch.

The movie was just very poor, in my opinion. It doesn't stand up under any type of scrutiny.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 07:07 PM   #79
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

^Well to be fair a fair few movies don't stand up to scrutiny to varying degrees. But INS can barely sit up to scrutiny never mind stand up.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 07:12 PM   #80
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
They could have apologized and returned to the planet 100 or 50 years before the film.
Apologize for what exactly? Apologize for wanting to be explorers? Apologize for not wanting to live like Luddites?
Those ungrateful bastards. Unwilling to give up the life of a warp civilization cause their parents decided to become space hippies.


__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 07:20 PM   #81
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

So...INS is a sequel to "The Way to Eden"?

This would explain a great many things...
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 07:55 PM   #82
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

DonIago wrote: View Post
So...INS is a sequel to "The Way to Eden"?

This would explain a great many things...
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:00 PM   #83
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
[QUOTE
Quark on the Ba'ku planet by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

DVD bonus scenes.
Ugh. I thought "bonus" meant a good thing.[/QUOTE]

Max Grodénchik's Bajoran is in the bonus scenes, not Quark's.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:23 PM   #84
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Considering they left to start their own interstellar empire, they were too much like prisoners now were they.
Ru'afo says they were exiled in the movie.

Exiled: expulsion from one's native land by authoritative decree.
And they still managed to build their own little empire all they lost was immortality, big deal.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:37 PM   #85
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

And they still managed to build their own little empire all they lost was immortality, big deal.
I wonder how people like Picard or Kirk would react if they were told they were no longer allowed to be explorers or chase their dreams?

How the Ba'ku treated their own was against everything the Federation stood for. People go on about the Ba'ku's right to self-determination yet the Ba'ku didn't believe in self-determination for their own people.

If Picard hadn't been hunting for a piece of ass, the Ba'ku would've been relocated.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

Last edited by BillJ; August 5 2013 at 08:51 PM.
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:46 PM   #86
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

bullethead wrote: View Post
How the hell did the Luddite Baku kick the Son'a off the planet in the first place? And why didn't the Son'a just move to another continent and build their own technologically advanced society to spite the Luddites? Hell, if the Son'a were competent, there wouldn't even be a movie.
They had the means to look at Data's positronic brain without much effort. They have the technology, stored somewhere perhaps.

And it's explained that the Son'a didn't want to live in the nebula (that no one else can enter without complications), they wanted to be part of the action. The Baku liked the place because it was protected by the nebula, the Son'a didn't. The Son'a only wanted the radiation. They wanted to have the cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Philosophies and intentions are not plot holes just because you don't agree with them.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And they still managed to build their own little empire all they lost was immortality, big deal.
And their infertility was their own fault. They didn't want to age, so they destroyed their bodies with genetic manipulation. And then they wanted to force the Baku off the planet.

All problems in this film are caused by the Son'a desperately pursuing eternal life, at all costs. First they destroyed themselves as a race with their genetic manipulation, then they wanted to harm the others in order to get that metaphasic radiation.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:46 PM   #87
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Considering they left to start their own interstellar empire, they were too much like prisoners now were they.
Ru'afo says they were exiled in the movie.

Exiled: expulsion from one's native land by authoritative decree.
And they still managed to build their own little empire all they lost was immortality, big deal.

if it's no big deal then it's no big deal for the Baku to be removed, right?

after all, forced relocation for the Baku which costs them their immortality is just poetic justice for what happened to the Son'a right?



oh, of course not. Because the Baku are pretty White people.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:49 PM   #88
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
How the hell did the Luddite Baku kick the Son'a off the planet in the first place? And why didn't the Son'a just move to another continent and build their own technologically advanced society to spite the Luddites? Hell, if the Son'a were competent, there wouldn't even be a movie.
They had the means to look at Data's positronic brain without much effort. They have the technology, stored somewhere perhaps.

And it's explained that the Son'a didn't want to live in the nebula (that no one else can enter without complications), they wanted to be part of the action. The Baku liked the place because it was protected by the nebula, the Son'a didn't. The Son'a only wanted the radiation. They wanted to have the cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Philosophies and intentions are not plot holes just because you don't agree with them.

so the Baku are colossal hypocrites who were fine with using advanced technology for violence if it helped to preserve their comfortable way of life?


that doesn't make them look like hypocrites at all.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:50 PM   #89
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

sonak wrote: View Post


oh, of course not. Because the Baku are pretty White people.
It would've been interesting to see how people reacted had the situation been reversed. That the ugly people were trying to defend their homes from the pretty white people.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:56 PM   #90
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: When did the perception of Insurrection change?

BillJ wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


oh, of course not. Because the Baku are pretty White people.
It would've been interesting to see how people reacted had the situation been reversed. That the ugly people were trying to defend their homes from the pretty white people.

have you seen Redlettermedia or TVtropes' take on INS?

They bring up the fact that Picard reverses his position from "journey's end," and they point out that the writing and juxtaposition of the two makes it look(rather unfortunately for the character) like Picard did so because in THAT case it was non-Whites being removed, whereas in THIS case it was Whites being removed.


And of course in "journey's end" there was no hot White woman for Picard to rescue.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ins, insurrection

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.