RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,344
Posts: 5,353,765
Members: 24,619
Currently online: 631
Newest member: nmatos2005

TrekToday headlines

Sci-Fried To Release New Album
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 5 2013, 06:31 AM   #61
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.
And we know for a fact that they couldn't have shared a border because the Klingon fleet commanded by the Martok Changeling had to travel through both Federation and Bajoran space to reach Cardassian territory. It makes absolutely no sense that they would stop at Deep Space 9 en route if a more direct route to Cardassia were available.

--Sran
Have to disagree with your logic there. If the most direct (i.e. shortest) route from were the Klingon fleet departed from to reach Cardassian territory was through Federation space. It doesn't preculde a border that is less direct (i.e. a longer route).
Wow, I completely forgot about that!
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 07:34 AM   #62
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Strategically thinking, though, the Klingons wanted a surprise attack, and were forced by circumstances to stop at DS9. If they had some territory that was actually bordering on Cardassian space, they could legitimately and covertly sail to that territory and pounce on the Cardassians from there, without losing the element of surprise.

The Star Charts map tries to reconcile with the various dramatic elements by suggesting that Cardassian territory extends "antispinwards" (to the right in the map), just like it does in onscreen charts - but that Klingon territory reaches "spinwards" at the same location, with Betreka as the place where the two collide. And the 18-year struggle over that region left both sides the losers, with the UFP actually becoming the eventual owner.

Those onscreen maps in DS9 show Cardassian space ballooning to the lower right in the Dominion War, in this theory as retribution for past wrongs... But that region is not the Cardassian heartland. In "Way of the Warrior", the Klingons chose the "long route" because they wanted to have the shortest distance of Cardassian-held space between their launching point and Cardassia Prime. And that was the distance between Bajor and Cardassia Prime!

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 05:41 PM   #63
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Let's not forget the whole reason Martok showed up at DS9 in force was a charade about deploying forces to help the Federation against the Dominion. A military build up on a shared border would be noticed and responded to after all whereas a fleet deployed to Bajor could be dismissed given the reasoning.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 05:45 PM   #64
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

True enough. Although both this episode and "Rules of Engagement" suggest that Klingons conduct their troop movements and even civilian shipping fully under cloak, making it difficult for the enemy to observe troop concentrations or predict maneuvers.

Romulans are capable of cloaking, too, and somewhat obsessive about it often enough. But their troop movements are a concern in "Angel One" - perhaps a deliberate ruse?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 06:09 PM   #65
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Cloaking has rarely been perfect, at times it seem that distant cloaked vessels are easier to detect.

The closer it gets, the harder it is to "see."

In both world wars when Germany invaded France, instead of crossing the common border, the germans entered France through a neutral country. That's where the French border was least protected.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 06:27 PM   #66
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

And of course in WWI it was the German invasion of Belgium that technically brought the UK into the war due to the Treaty of London 1839.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 06:31 PM   #67
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

OTOH, that's also where there were the most troops facing the Germans - neutral in addition to French, plus British expeditionary forces within a short hop across the Channel... It was the specific nature of defenses and obstacles, rather than their general quantity, that mattered the most.

Are border defenses of importance in Trek? We have seldom seen anybody intercepted at a border, or even observed crossing it. And the most devastating defenses have been mounted deep insystem, with the possible exception of the battle to retake Bajor from the Dominion (because it took a bit of warping after the battle to get to DS9).

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5 2013, 08:24 PM   #68
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

It's far easier to defend a 2D border rather than a 3D border.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 06:18 AM   #69
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Timo wrote: View Post
We have seldom seen anybody intercepted at a border, or even observed crossing it.
The Federation does seem to have sensor buoys adjacent to the Romulan neutral zone, that the Romulan take into account. And we have seen interceptions take place.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
It's far easier to defend a 2D border rather than a 3D border.
I my own mind, the borders in Star Trek are more like walls inbetween rooms.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 6 2013, 09:09 AM   #70
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

The Federation does seem to have sensor buoys adjacent to the Romulan neutral zone, that the Romulan take into account.
I think it is a somewhat optimistic interpretation of the dialogue in "Face of the Enemy" that these buoys would actually allow the Federation to secure the Zone against intrusion. After all, the Romulan ship in the episode does travel into Federation space quite undetected!

Supposedly, there's a finite rather than infinite risk of getting caught if some spends long enough a time in Federation territory, or goes deep enough, but relatively little risk if one just dashes out of the RNZ area and heads for strategically less interesting parts ("Tin Man", "Visionary", "The Die is Cast").

I my own mind, the borders in Star Trek are more like walls inbetween rooms.
A wall is difficult to walk through, though. A line in space doesn't present any inherent hindrance to movement...

The difference between 2D and 3D might change quite a few truths about warfare. In 2D, the old rule of thumb is that attack is futile unless you outnumber or otherwise outpower the defender 3:1. In 3D space, it might be that defense is futile unless you outnumber the attacker 6:1! Hence the massive war machine of the UFP still isn't enough to deter all sorts of upstarts like Talarians or Cardassians from making offensive moves - but when the Feds get fed up with that, they can end the nonsense with a very short and very decisive offense.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 09:50 AM   #71
USS KG5
Vice Admiral
 
USS KG5's Avatar
 
Location: England's green and pleasant land.
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Timo wrote: View Post
Hence the massive war machine of the UFP still isn't enough to deter all sorts of upstarts like Talarians or Cardassians from making offensive moves - but when the Feds get fed up with that, they can end the nonsense with a very short and very decisive offense.

Timo Saloniemi
Herein lies a key point. Whenever we discuss wars between the great powers on this board, we always assume we are talking about a no-holds barred total war along the lines of WW2.

What seems far more common is the Federation gets involved in little border skirmishes with races that in a WW2 scenario it could cream, but who do not justify the resources, blood or treasure to fight a total war.

A real world parallel might be Japan in WW2, who never stood a realistic chance, despite large capable military forces, of defeating the vast economic power of the USA. Despite this defeating them in a total war took a massive naval force, thousands of lives, a Russian invasion, a firebombing campaign and two atomic bombs. The Federation would never resort to the two latter measures, and would prefer a negotiated peace to any of the former.

The Talarians are a great example, I didn't get from the episode that the Enterprise has much to worry about from even three Talarian ships, it would easily defeat them. A small Federation fleet could probably effectively contain their entire military. The Cardassians are again simply a larger example, no match for the Federation in a total war but capable of an effective border campaign to win territorial concessions.

On paper, the US military was vastly superior to the North Vietnamese and their allies, but was still eventually forced to withdraw, due to domestic pressure and a failure to bring a timely end to the conflict. While eventually a revived US military might have won in Vietnam, it was never worth the cost in blood or treasure to do so.

So, in the Trekverse, throughout TNG we see constantly the same thing, on topic, I suspect the Federation has a superior economy and larger fleet than the Romulans, but this would only come into play in a total war. In a more limited campaign to take a few systems and move the neutral zone 50 light years closer to Earth, the Romulans would stand a fair chance of achieving their goals.
__________________
I believe in a better world, so I love Star Trek. I have to live in this one, so I love Battlestar Galactica.
USS KG5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 01:41 PM   #72
picsiskvinechef
Lieutenant
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

The Federation would win:

- The Treaty of Algeron would be nulled and have no standing. Thus, whilst the Romulans will have a brief advantage due to the cloaking device, there is nothing to prevent the UFP from obtaining its own cloaking tech. And we saw in The Pegasus that this is superior to anything (that we know of) the Romulans held.

- The Federation and Klingons are allies. And a major aspect of that alliance is the NATO-esque mutual defence clause. This is essentially why the Federation and Klingons were allied in the Dominion War. The Romulans would be hard pushed to combat and defeat both the Federation and the Klingons.
picsiskvinechef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 01:43 PM   #73
picsiskvinechef
Lieutenant
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Cloaking has rarely been perfect, at times it seem that distant cloaked vessels are easier to detect.

The closer it gets, the harder it is to "see."

In both world wars when Germany invaded France, instead of crossing the common border, the germans entered France through a neutral country. That's where the French border was least protected.

To the Dominion, perhaps. The Federation bar exceptional circumstances has not been able to ever detect cloaking technology.
picsiskvinechef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 06:20 PM   #74
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
... two atomic bombs. The Federation would never resort to the two latter measures ...
In the event of a major war (seem to be what we're discussing) why wouldn't Starfleet destroy one target that is a weapon manufacturing center, and another target that is a important transportation hub and military command headquarters?

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 7 2013, 06:51 PM   #75
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
... two atomic bombs. The Federation would never resort to the two latter measures ...
In the event of a major war (seem to be what we're discussing) why wouldn't Starfleet destroy one target that is a weapon manufacturing center, and another target that is a important transportation hub and military command headquarters?

This is the same Federation that turned a blind eye to Section 31 unleashing a virus on the Founders and deliberately withholding the cure once obtained. I don't think they'd be above sanctioning collateral civilian damage in pursuit of military objectives. Really a small thing next to genocide.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.