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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 3 2013, 03:17 AM   #811
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

bullethead wrote: View Post
You probably covered this when you first posted the graphic, but is there any particular reason why communications is in the engineering hull instead of closer to the saucer?
I think because the location where Kirk found Uhura in ST'09 was stated by Chekov in STID as being behind the main deflector.
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Old August 3 2013, 10:27 AM   #812
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

James wrote: View Post
Here is the Vengeance above the eastern tip of the island and right before it goes for a short swim.
Did you read my post about Alcatraz being crushed by this ship ? It's HUGE.
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Old August 3 2013, 10:34 AM   #813
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

^^Yep. Although I think I made the turbine area too small, it's a deck or two bigger than I have it here. Communications control was a little too high up anyway.

If any brewery enthusiasts know the exact dimensions of the fermenting tank warp cores, I'd be interested to know. Guesstimating a diameter of 20ft, they just about fit, with three rows, the gap with the catwalk and one more row on the other side. Their height I'm less sure of, but I'm hoping not so tall as to preclude the lowest level of engineering and the shuttlebay being on the same deck (since they walk through engineering to reach the shuttlebay every time)
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Old August 3 2013, 11:28 AM   #814
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)
Yeah, no problem.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:38 AM   #815
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
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That brewery is highly unrealistic, Abrams should have used money to actually design an engineering set instead of using a beer brewery, he even left the brewery's skylight windows in the top of the engineering section. I'm looking at the brewery they used on google earth and the brewery itself could fit in a ship that was smaller than 725 meters. The building with all the tanks and pipes is smaller than the sorting and packaging building. The eastern most part when measured from the last building to the street is 1480 feet. The trouble is we never get any kind of technical graphic that explains everything, That being said, I'm just going to let my imagination guess since their sets do not connect to each other to form a ship that people can accurately figure out.
IMO the engineering sections in Star Trek and Into Darkness are the same as those we saw in TOS, but on a far larger scale:

There is no chance that the brewery would fit into an Enterprise with a 30m wide engineering hull, as would be the case on a 366m/1200ft Enterprise. It would need to be far larger.... say, 725m/2380ft?

As for where everything fits, I made this way back at the start of the thread. Again, I think the only reason you cannot figure it out is because you're working from a faulty assumption - that this Enterprise is about the same size as the old one (300ish meters), when the makers of the film have said and shown repeatedly that their Enterprise is around 725m long.
You missed pointing out where all those 20th century rivets from the brewery and bolts are on any TOS or TMP Enterprise. Cuz they ain't there, maybe? The biggest problem with the brewery is that they didn't even disguise it. Next biggest is that conceptually it is embarrassing. You'd expect microfiche readers on the bridge if you wanted tech continuity.
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Old August 4 2013, 09:27 AM   #816
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

trevanian wrote: View Post
You missed pointing out where all those 20th century rivets from the brewery and bolts are on any TOS or TMP Enterprise. Cuz they ain't there, maybe?
Enterprise NX-01 had visible nuts, bolts and screws all over the ship. IIRC, defector control on the Enterprise-B in Generations did too. Oh, and Deep Space Nine had their "self sealing stembolts"
The biggest problem with the brewery is that they didn't even disguise it. Next biggest is that conceptually it is embarrassing. You'd expect microfiche readers on the bridge if you wanted tech continuity.
I guess everyone has their own threshold of what's acceptable and what isn't. I found STVI/TNG/DS9 Klingons hard to swallow, with their latex pie foreheads and rubber armour. Virtually unmodified TNG sets in STVI used to bother me, but nowadays I couldn't care less.

IMO the fermenting tanks are as much "warp cores" as the generic thing in the middle of TOS engine room is either an "impulse syncrotron unit" (according to Franz Joseph in '75) or a "matter/antimatter integrator" (according to Mike Okuda in '96). The thing Kirk kicks into allignment in ID is as much an integral part of the engine workings as the thing Spock fiddled around with in WoK.
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Old August 4 2013, 03:30 PM   #817
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

NX01 was a disaster in the details. contemporary computer fans visible on the helm killed it right off the bat, just like having a tube-powered oscilloscope would. DS9's stuff was DESIGNED, not offtheshelf. Can't speak to the GEN bit, don't recall them being so dumb as to do something there only.

There's an idiot moment in TWOK when during the 'energize defense screens' bit, somebody splices in 2 cuts of a modern console that has ZERO continuity with everything else in the show. But Abrams basically does half his ship that way.
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Old August 4 2013, 03:35 PM   #818
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

That graphic still lacks arrows to "Walls", "Floor", "Ceiling", "Stairs", "Lights", "Buttons" and "Stuff pulled out of my ass".
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Old August 4 2013, 05:32 PM   #819
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That graphic still lacks arrows to "Walls", "Floor", "Ceiling", "Stairs", "Lights", "Buttons" and "Stuff pulled out of my ass".
Not to mention to "Men in pyjamas"
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Old August 4 2013, 08:55 PM   #820
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

trevanian wrote: View Post
NX01 was a disaster in the details. contemporary computer fans visible on the helm killed it right off the bat, just like having a tube-powered oscilloscope would. DS9's stuff was DESIGNED, not offtheshelf. Can't speak to the GEN bit, don't recall them being so dumb as to do something there only.

There's an idiot moment in TWOK when during the 'energize defense screens' bit, somebody splices in 2 cuts of a modern console that has ZERO continuity with everything else in the show. But Abrams basically does half his ship that way.
As I said, it's relative. Those things didn't bother me or take me out of the story. And as much as I realize it'll date the NX-01 terribly in years to come, I actually got a kick out of seeing an Enterprise bridge made with contemporary technology.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That graphic still lacks arrows to "Walls", "Floor", "Ceiling", "Stairs", "Lights", "Buttons" and "Stuff pulled out of my ass".
So since you can't point out anything substantial, I guess you agree they're pretty much the same.
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Old August 4 2013, 10:22 PM   #821
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Not at all. Part of Star Trek "philosophy" was extremely advanced invisible ubiquitous technology (an idea that companies like Apple pursue as well). Everythings clean and hidden, even in engineering. In TOS mostly because of budget, but ever since TMP because of purpose.

It's the difference between a 1950s car engine and a modern car engine (or even an electric engine). Between a computer workstation from the 70s and an iPhone. Or between an ISS module and a MIR module. Or between the cable spaghetti of an old desktop computer and the cable less bluetooth systems of today. Heck, the difference between a 100 year old brewery and a modern brewery.

All that visible piping and plating and circuiting goes against that idea.
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Old August 5 2013, 03:53 AM   #822
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Not at all. Part of Star Trek "philosophy" was extremely advanced invisible ubiquitous technology (an idea that companies like Apple pursue as well). Everythings clean and hidden, even in engineering. In TOS mostly because of budget, but ever since TMP because of purpose.
Apple can afford to throw out your old iPod and give you a replacement under warranty, rather than trying to repair something so fiddly. Scotty doesn't exactly have that same choice where the warp core is concerned; some access to the guts would still be necessary on a regular basis.

In TNG, they hid that kind of stuff behind that "fusebox" panel in main engineering, or shoved it into the Jeffries tubes. The new movies keep with the "hide it" philosophy on the "user facing" parts of the ship, but not down in engineering. It seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:43 AM   #823
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

trevanian wrote: View Post
There's an idiot moment in TWOK when during the 'energize defense screens' bit, somebody splices in 2 cuts of a modern console that has ZERO continuity with everything else in the show. But Abrams basically does half his ship that way.
I guarantee that boiler rooms will still look the same in 300 years.
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Old August 5 2013, 02:36 PM   #824
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Not at all. Part of Star Trek "philosophy" was extremely advanced invisible ubiquitous technology (an idea that companies like Apple pursue as well). Everythings clean and hidden, even in engineering. In TOS mostly because of budget, but ever since TMP because of purpose.
But doesn't that work against easy access for maintenance and replacing parts? And even accepting that Starfleet-Prime liked to keep the inner workings of their starships hidden, isn't it possible that in the AU they went "Fuck it" and decided on a giant open-plan engineering section?
It's the difference between a 1950s car engine and a modern car engine (or even an electric engine). Between a computer workstation from the 70s and an iPhone. Or between an ISS module and a MIR module. Or between the cable spaghetti of an old desktop computer and the cable less bluetooth systems of today. Heck, the difference between a 100 year old brewery and a modern brewery.

All that visible piping and plating and circuiting goes against that idea.
But it's all visible in the original! Yes the new version is more densely cluttered, but I maintain that what's in the TOS and STXI engine rooms is the same. I'd even go so far as to suggest that TOS episodes like "Court Martial" and "The Enemy Within" implied an engineering section far larger and more maze-like than they were able to depict.
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Old August 5 2013, 04:17 PM   #825
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

ATimson wrote: View Post

In TNG, they hid that kind of stuff behind that "fusebox" panel in main engineering, or shoved it into the Jeffries tubes. The new movies keep with the "hide it" philosophy on the "user facing" parts of the ship, but not down in engineering. It seems like a reasonable compromise to me.


I like the hybrid mechanical look. Things that you would need quick and easy access to are there out in the open. Wish my mother-in-laws car air filter were someplace out in the open and easy to get at.
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