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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Strongest ship in the Federation fleet during the Dominion War
Galaxy Class 24 77.42%
Defiant Class 5 16.13%
Akira Class 1 3.23%
Excelsior Class 0 0%
Steamrunner Class 0 0%
Norway Class 1 3.23%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 4 2013, 06:42 PM   #31
Melakon
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Sran wrote: View Post
. . .Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. . .
This is why I shouldn't post in DS9 forum, I only have Season 7 and a handful of other episodes.
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Old August 4 2013, 07:05 PM   #32
Edit_XYZ
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Dukhat wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that he actually chose the vessel. He got what was available. We have no way of knowing whether he actually selected Sao Paulo from a list of ready-made ships.

--Sran
There's no evidence whatsoever that he "got what was available", either.
You mean other than that there was a war on and Sisko probably didn't have the luxury to pick and choose the style of ship for his next command?
1 - talk about an irrelevant detail to discuss. Either Sisko had a choice and choose a defiant (probable), or he would have chosen a defiant if given a choice:
2 - Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search' - and then he could most definitely choose his ship. Defiant's performance was excellent throughout the war. Ross gave the ship to Sisko not as ~'that's all we have', but as ~'it's christmas - here's something you want'; Sisko behaved pleased and not surprised.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; August 4 2013 at 07:43 PM.
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Old August 4 2013, 08:41 PM   #33
Sran
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
2 - Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search' - and then he could most definitely choose his ship.
Different circumstances. When Sisko asked for the Defiant before "The Search," the ship was an unfinished and largely untested battle cruiser (recall that the project was abandoned by Starfleet before Sisko revived it). The vessel was something of a lemon and was not highly regarded by Starfleet. Sisko got the Defiant not because he had the authority to choose his own ship, but because he had the virtue of wanting a ship that no one else did.

As you pointed out, the Defiant performed well while stationed at DS9 both before and during the Dominion War. As such, other vessels of the same class were put into production because Starfleet recognized the value of having ships exclusively devoted to combat available for use. The Valiant was used as a training ship for cadets; the Sao Paulo was built, as well.

When the Defiant was lost, Ross told Sisko he'd find another ship for him, but he didn't specify when or what type of ship it would be. That DS9 received another Defiant-class vessel may have been the result of Sisko asking for it, though there's no evidence suggesting anything like this took place. Dax herself said that she didn't even realize another Defiant-class vessel would be in the mix (though she was absent for much of the intervening time period). OTOH, it may just have been a huge coincidence. The war was still going on, so it's not as though Sisko had time to think it over once a new ship was available.

--Sran
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Old August 4 2013, 09:44 PM   #34
Timo
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

It's not as if Starfleet would have benefited much from giving their best ship type to Sisko - a homebody who was supposed to be guarding DS9 and would become a liability to Federation defenses if tempted to go gallivanting around in a powerful offensive unit...

OTOH, there would have been definite benefits to giving Sisko and his crew a ship maximally similar to what they had before. Less time spent learning the ropes, better match to the already well-established tactics and practices, you name it.

I guess Sisko would have had the pull to get some other type of ship in more peaceful times, what with him being an important element in the political struggle to secure Bajor and its wormhole for the Federation. In war, he was a much smaller player: an honorary fleet commander in certain battles relating to his home turf, but mostly an idler in a quiet little corner of the overall war theater.

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Old August 5 2013, 01:48 AM   #35
Dukhat
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
talk about an irrelevant detail to discuss.
Please explain to me how not being able to pick and choose your own ship during wartime is an irrelevant detail to discuss.

Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search'
So? How does that have any bearing on him getting the second Defiant?

Ross gave the ship to Sisko not as ~'that's all we have', but as ~'it's christmas - here's something you want'; Sisko behaved pleased and not surprised.
Evidence for this in an episode?
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Old August 5 2013, 04:01 AM   #36
kgartm1185
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
talk about an irrelevant detail to discuss.
Please explain to me how not being able to pick and choose your own ship during wartime is an irrelevant detail to discuss.

Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search'
So? How does that have any bearing on him getting the second Defiant?

Ross gave the ship to Sisko not as ~'that's all we have', but as ~'it's christmas - here's something you want'; Sisko behaved pleased and not surprised.
Evidence for this in an episode?
I not sure if it was evidence but I think the episode the poster is talking about is in season 7 called "The Dogs of War".
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Old August 5 2013, 06:17 AM   #37
Roboturner913
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Sran wrote: View Post
Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. Captain Benteen says, "We've been unable to stop the Defiant. Someone has equipped her with ablative armor and neglected to inform Starfleet Command."
Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.

It's very possible the ship was very top-secret until "Paradise Lost" at which point the beans were spilled. Leyton was not a full admiral and wouldn't necessarily have the highest security clearance.
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Old August 5 2013, 06:33 AM   #38
kgartm1185
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. Captain Benteen says, "We've been unable to stop the Defiant. Someone has equipped her with ablative armor and neglected to inform Starfleet Command."
Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.

It's very possible the ship was very top-secret until "Paradise Lost" at which point the beans were spilled. Leyton was not a full admiral and wouldn't necessarily have the highest security clearance.
If the Defiant is unofficial considered a warship, shouldn't the Galaxy class, Nebula, class, Akira class, Prometheus class, and Sovereign class starships be, too?
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Old August 5 2013, 02:15 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Probably. The "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships?" quip by Kira was always undeserving of an answer, containing in itself the implication that Starfleet has plenty of warships it shies away from properly designating as such...

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Old August 5 2013, 06:22 PM   #40
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

I think the Prometheus acquitted itself rather well, taking only minimal damage while fighting a small fleet of both Romulans and Feddies (including one Defiant-class!), crewed only by two bumbling medical holograms
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Roboturner913 wrote: View Post

Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.
If the Defiant is unofficial considered a warship, shouldn't the Galaxy class, Nebula, class, Akira class, Prometheus class, and Sovereign class starships be, too?
The Defiant was designed as a warship, and only a warship. Everything else you mentioned had other roles, ones which could lead them to having to defend themselves (this goes triple for the more exploring types); since Starfleet seems to value their ships and crews, they would want them to be able to defend themselves as well as possible. Even the designation of "escort" implies a defensive role, and not even necessarily a highly-armed one (defending freighters or VIP's from pirates, etc). But warship implies offensive power, and no other purpose.
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Old August 5 2013, 08:36 PM   #41
doctorfoto
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
I think the Prometheus acquitted itself rather well, taking only minimal damage while fighting a small fleet of both Romulans and Feddies (including one Defiant-class!), crewed only by two bumbling medical holograms
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Roboturner913 wrote: View Post

Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.
If the Defiant is unofficial considered a warship, shouldn't the Galaxy class, Nebula, class, Akira class, Prometheus class, and Sovereign class starships be, too?
The Defiant was designed as a warship, and only a warship. Everything else you mentioned had other roles, ones which could lead them to having to defend themselves (this goes triple for the more exploring types); since Starfleet seems to value their ships and crews, they would want them to be able to defend themselves as well as possible. Even the designation of "escort" implies a defensive role, and not even necessarily a highly-armed one (defending freighters or VIP's from pirates, etc). But warship implies offensive power, and no other purpose.
Agreed.

I figured that Starfleet just didn't have that particular tick-box on the form when they designed her.

It says "Ship Type" Hmm... Not Ambassador, Medical, or Exploration-

Just check "Escort". Good enough.
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Old August 5 2013, 09:20 PM   #42
bbjeg
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Out of the choices the Galaxy Class, after the Dominion upgrades is the strongest. The Steamrunner Class, after the Dominion upgrades, would tie the Defiant for 2nd in my opinion. The Steamrunner/heavy frigate class is designed to take damage and, with ablative armor, could hold it's own against the Defiant long enough to damage back, though the Defiant is a good mix of attack and defense. The Galaxy Class wins out of the three simply because it could put out and take more than both.

The Sovereign Class would trump all of them though. The Defiant would be blown to pieces against Shinzon's ship.
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Old August 6 2013, 01:40 PM   #43
M.A.C.O.
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Decided to reupload this for the sake of discussion. there are some really interesting bits about the Galaxy classes torpedo capabilities. That I don't think we ever saw in the show. Makes you think that things may have been differently for the ENT-D and the Odyssey. If torpedoes were deployed during the fights that ultimately led to their destruction.

From the 2009 release of Star Trek The Next Generation movie collection. On the disc titles Star Trek Evolutions.

The Evolution of the Enterprise
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Old August 6 2013, 02:43 PM   #44
Sran
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I not sure if it was evidence but I think the episode the poster is talking about is in season 7 called "The Dogs of War".
"The Dogs of War" is the episode in question, but there's no on-screen evidence that Sisko asked for the Sao Paulo. All we know is that it's the ship he received. The why is never made clear.

--Sran
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Old August 6 2013, 02:45 PM   #45
Sran
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Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Decided to reupload this for the sake of discussion. there are some really interesting bits about the Galaxy classes torpedo capabilities. That I don't think we ever saw in the show. Makes you think that things may have been differently for the ENT-D and the Odyssey. If torpedoes were deployed during the fights that ultimately led to their destruction.

From the 2009 release of Star Trek The Next Generation movie collection. On the disc titles Star Trek Evolutions.
Two things:

1. That's an interesting video, but it's not cannon and is therefore not applicable to this discussion.

2. Why is it so difficult for you to type in complete sentences? Your posts are littered with sentence fragments and broken English, making them harder to read than they need to be.

--Sran
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