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Old August 4 2013, 03:24 PM   #46
kgartm1185
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.
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Old August 4 2013, 03:36 PM   #47
R. Star
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.
Well there have(and will continue to be) debates about what is. The producers and creator never could come to any consensus about what is and isn't canon, Roddenberry picking and choosing movies/series, producers counteracting that, some saying their novels count, and so forth.

But the generally accepted definition is the base material is what happens on screen. So no novels, tech manuals, games etc. Though on the subject of games, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Garidians on that map. For a one time vassal state to the Romulans, they carved out a huge chunk of space. Though even that map got it wrong as Frigis was said in the game to be in Federation space.
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Old August 4 2013, 05:03 PM   #48
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!
That map isn't cannon, so citing it as proof of your argument is a waste of everyone's time. What on-screen evidence can you provide to illustrate your point?

kgartm1185 wrote:
2. Why would the Romulans only send a few ships to the front lines?
This has already been explained to you. The Romulans opened a second front against the Dominion and deployed most of their forces at that location. Only a small fraction of their military was dispatched to fight alongside the Federation and the Klingons. The exact reasoning behind this isn't clear, but there are lines of dialogue to illustrate that this is exactly what happened.

kgartm1185 wrote:
3. The Sovereign class is obviously stronger than the Valdore type warbirds because of many reasons including armament. But in the battle against the Scimitar, those ships lasted what, like 5-6 minutes! Meanwhile the Enterprise took far more hits and only two sections of their shields which they regenerated thanks to superior Federation technology.
Shinzon did not want to destroy the Enterprise, something that's also included in the film's dialogue. It was only after both ships were damaged beyond repair that he decided to use the thalaron weapon. Following the Scimitar's destruction, Commander Donatra offered the Enterprise assistance (medical supplies, equipment) because they were in worse shape than the Valdore-class vessels.

--Sran
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Old August 4 2013, 05:07 PM   #49
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

R. Star wrote: View Post
As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.
And we know for a fact that they couldn't have shared a border because the Klingon fleet commanded by the Martok Changeling had to travel through both Federation and Bajoran space to reach Cardassian territory. It makes absolutely no sense that they would stop at Deep Space 9 en route if a more direct route to Cardassia were available.

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Old August 4 2013, 05:16 PM   #50
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.
It's precisely because that site isn't cannon that it does not give an idea of each ship's strengths. And it does matter if material is cannon or not because everyone must be allowed to have the same reference point from which to evaluate the events in question. People are free to draw their own conclusions, of course, but everyone has to have the same starting point.

BillJ wrote: View Post
No it gives what someone who has no association with the various Trek productions thinks.

Sorry. The reason that being on screen is important is that it gives everyone the same standard for reference.
Exactly. Otherwise, anyone could argue that their fan fiction is just as valid as anything that happens on screen. I've certainly read fan fiction that I think is superior to some of the material that was ultimately aired, but that doesn't mean the material is cannon. Only television and film are considered cannon as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned. Unless someone (Rick Berman, for example) says otherwise, that's not likely to change.

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.
Except that there's nothing that actually proves this. The Federation would seem to be the strongest of the three, but we never see them engaged in a prolonged conflict with either the Klingons or the Romulans. Therefore, there's no way to know for sure which power is the strongest.

--Sran
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Old August 4 2013, 06:19 PM   #51
kgartm1185
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sran wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.
It's precisely because that site isn't cannon that it does not give an idea of each ship's strengths. And it does matter if material is cannon or not because everyone must be allowed to have the same reference point from which to evaluate the events in question. People are free to draw their own conclusions, of course, but everyone has to have the same starting point.

BillJ wrote: View Post
No it gives what someone who has no association with the various Trek productions thinks.

Sorry. The reason that being on screen is important is that it gives everyone the same standard for reference.
Exactly. Otherwise, anyone could argue that their fan fiction is just as valid as anything that happens on screen. I've certainly read fan fiction that I think is superior to some of the material that was ultimately aired, but that doesn't mean the material is cannon. Only television and film are considered cannon as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned. Unless someone (Rick Berman, for example) says otherwise, that's not likely to change.

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.
Except that there's nothing that actually proves this. The Federation would seem to be the strongest of the three, but we never see them engaged in a prolonged conflict with either the Klingons or the Romulans. Therefore, there's no way to know for sure which power is the strongest.

--Sran
If there's no proof of which is strongest, then why would anyone start a thread about which one is stronger?
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Old August 4 2013, 06:21 PM   #52
kgartm1185
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

R. Star wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.
Well there have(and will continue to be) debates about what is. The producers and creator never could come to any consensus about what is and isn't canon, Roddenberry picking and choosing movies/series, producers counteracting that, some saying their novels count, and so forth.

But the generally accepted definition is the base material is what happens on screen. So no novels, tech manuals, games etc. Though on the subject of games, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Garidians on that map. For a one time vassal state to the Romulans, they carved out a huge chunk of space. Though even that map got it wrong as Frigis was said in the game to be in Federation space.
Thank you for explaining it to me without being snobby and mean unlike other posters.
Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?
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Old August 4 2013, 06:40 PM   #53
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
If there's no proof of which is strongest, then why would anyone start a thread about which one is stronger?
Because topics like that invite discussion and debate, which is exactly why forums like this were created in the first place. Star Trek isn't real. The events that happen in its universe aren't real (as far as we know given that most of them happen in the future). Yet they're discussed over and over again because they're fun to talk about.

If everything were clear-cut, there would be no point in discussing anything. People like discussing topics that are challenging and force one to reexamine his or her viewpoints.

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Old August 4 2013, 06:44 PM   #54
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?
Unfortunately, no. Memory Alpha is an excellent reference tool, but there are bits and pieces of information within the site that aren't supported by anything on screen. MA contains several paragraphs about Captain Picard's twenty-two-year run as the commander of the USS Stargazer. Yet there's absolutely no dialogue in TNG that supports this; what we know of Picard's time aboard the Stargazer is that Jack Crusher served with him and that he took command of the ship's bridge after a previous captain was killed.

But there is absolutely no information about how long he served on the vessel, nor is it clear how he rose to the rank of captain.

--Sran
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Old August 4 2013, 06:53 PM   #55
kgartm1185
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sran wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?
Unfortunately, no. Memory Alpha is an excellent reference tool, but there are bits and pieces of information within the site that aren't supported by anything on screen. MA contains several paragraphs about Captain Picard's twenty-two-year run as the commander of the USS Stargazer. Yet there's absolutely no dialogue in TNG that supports this; what we know of Picard's time aboard the Stargazer is that Jack Crusher served with him and that he took command of the ship's bridge after a previous captain was killed.

But there is absolutely no information about how long he served on the vessel, nor is it clear how he rose to the rank of captain.

--Sran
Ok, gotcha.
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Old August 4 2013, 09:31 PM   #56
Timo
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

...As regards that map, it's sorta related to what goes on onscreen. About as related as I'm to Abraham Lincoln, but still.

The map is the handiwork of a fan named Christian Rühl, and attracted the attention and approval of another fan Geoffrey Mandel who then wrote and illustrated the Star Trek Star Charts book. The book isn't canon - but was in turn an influence on the people who made DS9 and VOY, and some of its artwork in fact was created in two-way cooperation with those people and shows.

No, this chain of events does not establish the relative sizes of the UFP, the RSE and the KE in canonical terms. But amusingly enough, it does establish things like the route of the Voyager: the canonical route map, glimpsed in some Season 7 episodes, was a Mandel piece first portrayed in this book. (Alas, this galactic map doesn't show such fine detail as the tiny dots that would be UFP, RSE and KE...)

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Old August 4 2013, 10:28 PM   #57
R. Star
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sran wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?
Unfortunately, no. Memory Alpha is an excellent reference tool, but there are bits and pieces of information within the site that aren't supported by anything on screen. MA contains several paragraphs about Captain Picard's twenty-two-year run as the commander of the USS Stargazer. Yet there's absolutely no dialogue in TNG that supports this; what we know of Picard's time aboard the Stargazer is that Jack Crusher served with him and that he took command of the ship's bridge after a previous captain was killed.

But there is absolutely no information about how long he served on the vessel, nor is it clear how he rose to the rank of captain.

--Sran
Q said something about Picard taking command when the Stargazer's captain was injured in Tapestry.
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Old August 5 2013, 12:48 AM   #58
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post

You can't have as many star systems as the Federation if you don't encompass as much area. And the blue section includes all the planets that are part of the Federation ...
No, the point I was making is that the blue area will include both Federation planets and non-Federation planets. Membership is voluntary.

... and it is clear to anyone who possesses the ability to read ...
Uh huh.

that the Federation includes more planets than the Klingon or Romulan Empires.
You also need to consider how many planets would be above and below the level of that image.



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Old August 5 2013, 03:47 AM   #59
kgartm1185
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post

You can't have as many star systems as the Federation if you don't encompass as much area. And the blue section includes all the planets that are part of the Federation ...
No, the point I was making is that the blue area will include both Federation planets and non-Federation planets. Membership is voluntary.

... and it is clear to anyone who possesses the ability to read ...
Uh huh.

that the Federation includes more planets than the Klingon or Romulan Empires.
You also need to consider how many planets would be above and below the level of that image.



Oh, OK. I understand you now. That's a better map in showing how many planets the Klingon Empire includes but it seems to show less for the Federation.

In ST: DS9, didn't Weyoun tell Dukat after Dukat's show of overconfidence that "holding on to a prize as vast as the Federation isn't going to be easy. It's going to require an enormous number of ships, a massive occupation army and constant vigilance."

Last edited by kgartm1185; August 5 2013 at 04:19 AM.
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Old August 5 2013, 04:34 AM   #60
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sran wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.
And we know for a fact that they couldn't have shared a border because the Klingon fleet commanded by the Martok Changeling had to travel through both Federation and Bajoran space to reach Cardassian territory. It makes absolutely no sense that they would stop at Deep Space 9 en route if a more direct route to Cardassia were available.

--Sran
Have to disagree with your logic there. If the most direct (i.e. shortest) route from were the Klingon fleet departed from to reach Cardassian territory was through Federation space. It doesn't preculde a border that is less direct (i.e. a longer route).
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