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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 4 2013, 04:25 AM   #31
RPJOB
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post


So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.
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Old August 4 2013, 12:47 PM   #32
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post


So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.
Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.
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Old August 4 2013, 02:02 PM   #33
The Wormhole
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post


So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.
Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.
However, what RPJOB was referring to specifically did only take ten minutes or so. Well, okay, maybe a day in continuity, but still.

Kirk is chewed out, stripped of rank, and sent back to the Academy. He goes to a bar to get drunk and maybe score.

Pike shows up, cockblocks Kirk and informs him he's to be the Enterprise's first officer.

Harrison attacks Starfleet midnight briefing. Pike is killed. Kirk defends himself with a fire hose.

Marcus restores Kirk to captain.

That part could have very easily have been removed from the movie with no impact on the storyline. A better way to have gone about the Kirk earns his command routine would have been to have him suspended for his Prime Directive violations until such time as a hearing can be held. However, then Harrison shows up, kills every Captain and first officer in the Sol system when he attacks the briefing, leaving Kirk the only officer left with any kind of command experience and therefore the only choice to deal with things.
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Old August 4 2013, 02:28 PM   #34
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

I don't think that it was meant to show that Kirk earnt his captaincy by being one of the few captains left alive. He only really got his captaincy back by being a suitable patsy for Admiral Marcus.
I think the captaincy was supposed to be earnt by his actions in the entire movie.

As a Star Trek fan I thought the sudden captaincy at the end of ST09 was very surprising but thought they were trying to appeal to a younger audience.
I felt actually Kirk had earned his captaincy a bit at the beginning of STID by not letting a civilisation die unnecessarily, and not having any deaths in his crew for 6 months. I thought them taking the Enterprise off him was a bit petty of Starfleet. If they were actually concerned about the Prime Directive they should have courtmartialled him
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Old August 4 2013, 02:51 PM   #35
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:25 PM   #36
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.
I think psychopath is a bit much.
Perhaps does his duty and defends the Federation and its interests against a guy who killed at least 40 people and is still a danger. Its not like Khan was going to retire to Ceti Alpha and start a new colony in peace.
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Old August 4 2013, 06:17 PM   #37
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.
You cannot say Spock never learned to control his emotions. We don't see enough of his normal life for that. Look at all that has happened to him. 1) He lost his Mother and, 2) His home world is GONE, thanks to STXI. Surak himself might say, "The cause was more than sufficient. Let us speak no further of it."

I'm sorry, but I think ALL Vulcan's would find it hard to put aside their emotions if they were suddenly faced with the loss of their family, friends, home. Everything they knew is gone. As far as canon is concerned, thanks to Enterprise, it had been only a little over a 100 years that the true teachings of Surak had been found, and now, we must assume they too are lost. Because I do not recall seeing the Kir'Shara on any of the Vulcan elders when they beamed off.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd1630.jpg

[Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on your own web space or on an image-hosting account registered to you. Also, that one was pretty gigantic; please try to resize large images to no more than 800 pixels in width. - M']

Nope they hold NOTHING! IMO Nu!Vulcan Elders didn't care enough about Surak's teaching to SAVE it from permanent destruction. But then, JJ doesn't care enough about the original works to be concerned about them.

Last edited by M'Sharak; August 4 2013 at 08:35 PM. Reason: oversize image hotlinked from TrekCore
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Old August 4 2013, 06:38 PM   #38
RPJOB
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post


So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.
Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.
Yes, Kirk did do all of those things. AFTER he became Captain again. Kirk once again went from attending the Academy (as ordered by Pike for disciplinary reasons) to being the Captain in the space of just a few hours. Ge did stop Harrison's attack on the meeting but isn't that something that any member of Starfleet would have done? You don't get to be Captain for doing your job. You get to be Captain by doing your job really, really well and showing that you have the ability to lead your crew.

If the writers planned to address the complaints that Kirk got the captaincy too quickly in the first movie they really did a bad job of improving the situation in the second. As I said before, you could remove the whole demotion/promotion from the movie and literally nothing would change.
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Old August 4 2013, 07:17 PM   #39
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

perhaps this is considered off topic or needs to be under another header, if so I apologize in advance for this error on my part.

It was brought up that it is expected that Kirk and Carol Marcus will have a romance. I must preface this by saying I absolutely abhor the whole TWOK story line with regards to Kirk/Carol/David. That being said, though I hate to say this, perhaps if they do have a romance it will be because Carol has seen a maturation of Kirk. She is well aware of his reputation and what happened with her friend Christine Chapel.

On the other hand, a mature Kirk would not become involved with a crewmember, and the same would go for Dr. McCoy. I'm thinking the main focus is the Spock/Uhura romance.

Honestly, I just think that unless something drastically changes in the attitude of the writers a highly mature Kirk is unlikely.

All this being said, I love the new characters except for Spock. I particularly enjoyed Chris Pine and Karl Urban and sincerely hope the next film leaves the romance to Spock and Uhura. I would like it to focus on friendships, the closeness of the crew.

As I read this I am really thinking I am in the wrong place to post these thoughts but I will leave it up to the moderator.
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Old August 5 2013, 01:09 AM   #40
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

I'm sorry, but I think ALL Vulcan's would find it hard to put aside their emotions if they were suddenly faced with the loss of their family, friends, home. Everything they knew is gone. As far as canon is concerned, thanks to Enterprise, it had been only a little over a 100 years that the true teachings of Surak had been found, and now, we must assume they too are lost. Because I do not recall seeing the Kir'Shara on any of the Vulcan elders when they beamed off.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd1630.jpg

Nope they hold NOTHING! IMO Nu!Vulcan Elders didn't care enough about Surak's teaching to SAVE it from permanent destruction. But then, JJ doesn't care enough about the original works to be concerned about them.
IIRC, during the escape but prior to them reaching the beam out point the Elder crushed by the falling statue was carrying something...
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Old August 6 2013, 04:30 PM   #41
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Vulcans also have photographic memories, they could rewrite the whole thing from memory. And they'd be idiots to not have computer backups of the texts all over the Federation's version of the internet.

Plus, accepting the above, if one extra Vulcan child could be fitted into an escape shuttle by leaving the Kir'Shara in the dirt, I know what I'd do.
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Old August 6 2013, 04:57 PM   #42
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Kirk I've never been a fan of, finding him to be a jerk most of the time. NuKirk is much the same, though he is definately better looking.

NuSpock is alright.

NuScotty just doesn't feel right. He seems too angry and bitter about life.

NuMcCoy I like, though given the paradigm shift in the NuTrek focus we haven't seen nearly enough of him.

NuSulu hasn't really done much so far.

NuUhura is grating, snide and unpleasant.

NuChekov again hasn't done much.
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Old August 7 2013, 05:41 AM   #43
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Found this on tumblr. Thought it would be good for a laugh.

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Old August 7 2013, 07:25 PM   #44
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

It needs a pause button or slow-mo cause that goes by fast! Makes my eyes hurt.
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Old August 8 2013, 02:06 AM   #45
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Found this on tumblr. Thought it would be good for a laugh.

Ricardo and Benedict look more alike than I thought.
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