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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 4 2013, 07:04 AM   #16
R. Star
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

^
What a detailed and tangible explanation. Eliminates all doubt.
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Old August 4 2013, 11:16 AM   #17
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

The "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline is built on the idea of the Enterprise-C leaving the timeline, never being reported as having shown up at the Klingon outpost having (I'm guessing) just "gone missing." So right there it can't be the "correct future" since that future was built on an alteration of the timeline.
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Old August 4 2013, 03:32 PM   #18
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

The "regular" timeline is the real one. The very fact that we saw so much of it before "Yesterday's Enterprise" ever aired is all the proof I need. The 'war future' timeline is just a means to that end - it was necessary for that alt-timeline to exist so that the real one also could.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:12 PM   #19
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

If you want to look at this from a multiverse standpoint I feel it would be something like this-

Track A, which we're watching up until the C comes through the rift: TNG as we've known it to that point. No Sela. The C was destroyed at Narendra Three.

Track B: The war timeline. The C disappeared in the past and reappears in the future (you could make a case for another alternate timeline where the C appears versus one where it doesn't, I suppose). The D protects it while it's sent back and is ultimately destroyed. Things continue to go badly, because the C ends up in...

Track C: A variant of Track A in which Sela has always existed and the C was destroyed at Narendra Three. The D observes a rift but nothing comes through.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:14 PM   #20
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

^ There is no Track C. In every episode we saw even prior to Y.E., Sela was still part of history, as was the battle in which the Ent-C was destroyed. Indeed, the alliance with the Klingons couldn't have existed without it, as it was the ship's destruction which spurred said alliance.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:29 PM   #21
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

I believe there has to be a Track C because there has to be a track in which Our Heroes exist but Sela does not. The C still does its thing, it just doesn't travel into the future during the course of events in said timeline.
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Old August 4 2013, 07:31 PM   #22
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
BUT, that doesn't explain Guinan's knowledge that something was somehow wrong. And it confuses the hell out of "Time's Arrow" and how Guinan and Picard met.
I'm going to stick with the original intent of this episode, before NuTrek's alternate-universe version of time travel.

It was one timeline that changed, and changed back. The temporal rift had apertures at two different times in the same universe, and Guinan has some sense of alterations to that universe.
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Old August 4 2013, 08:22 PM   #23
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ There is no Track C. In every episode we saw even prior to Y.E., Sela was still part of history, as was the battle in which the Ent-C was destroyed. Indeed, the alliance with the Klingons couldn't have existed without it, as it was the ship's destruction which spurred said alliance.
I don't know. The way I see it, the timeline existed in the following way:

Timeline A: Enterprise-C destroyed defending Narendra III; Klingon-Federation peace treaty signed; USS Enterprise-D commanded by Jean-Luc Picard; Tasha Yar dies on Vagra II; Sela does not exist in this timeline because her mother never traveled back in time to conceive her.

However, after the Enterprise-C vanishes from its proper place in history, the following timeline (B) comes into play:

Timeline B: Enterprise-C vanishes from Narendra III (presumed destroyed); Federation-Klingon relations deteriorate following incident; Federation-Klingon war begins following Romulan attack and lasts for two decades; Enterprise-D commanded by Jean-Luc Picard and encounters Enterprise-C when the latter travels into the future in 2366; Tasha Yar is alive but returns to the past with Enterprise-C to defend Narendra III.

When the Enterprise-C returns to her proper place and time, the second timeline above vanishes and is replaced by a third timeline (C). This timeline is similar to the first with the exception of there being two people named Tasha Yar prior to the death of the Tasha native to the original timeline on Vagra II as noted above. The Tasha from Timeline B conceives and gives birth to a half-Romulan daughter named Sela.

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Old August 4 2013, 08:29 PM   #24
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline is built on the idea of the Enterprise-C leaving the timeline, never being reported as having shown up at the Klingon outpost having (I'm guessing) just "gone missing." So right there it can't be the "correct future" since that future was built on an alteration of the timeline.
Correct. The example I always think of happens in Back to the Future, when Doc tests the Delorean with Einstein by sending him one minute into the future. For Einstein, the trip happens instantly, and he never realizes that he's gone anywhere. But for Doc and Marty, Einstein is missing for the entire minute that passes before he reappears.

The same is true of the Enterprise. She disappeared before the Klingons realized that their distress signal had been heard and responded to. They blamed the Federation for not acting properly because they didn't understand what had happened. When the Enterprise returned to 2344, she was able to defend the outpost from the Romulans long enough for the Klingons to realize that Starfleet was trying to help them.

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Old August 4 2013, 09:20 PM   #25
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

Agreed. Though I'm not sure the lack of help from the Federation caused the war, I think tensions just increased more and more between the Klingons and the Federation in the intervening 20-years or so and it just reached a breaking point. It's possible the incident with the Romulans didn't help matters but I doubt it was a contributing factor.

But it was the destruction of the -C at the outpost that changed relations between the Federation and the Klingons since the ship and her destruction showed that the Federation had honor in them.
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Old August 4 2013, 09:31 PM   #26
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I believe there has to be a Track C because there has to be a track in which Our Heroes exist but Sela does not.
I don't agree. The very nature of time travel in situations like this means that the effects can and do precede the cause. So the end result of the Ent-C's time travelling make themselves known before it actually does that thing.

Kind of like ST:FC. Picard and company were always part of the history of Earth-Vulcan first contact (you can't prove otherwise, at any rate - just like here), but we never actually see how this happens until the film.
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Old August 4 2013, 10:50 PM   #27
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't agree. The very nature of time travel in situations like this means that the effects can and do precede the cause. So the end result of the Ent-C's time travelling make themselves known before it actually does that thing.
This idea has been debated by temporal physicists over and over again, and no conclusion has been reached (or likely ever will be). The idea that one could create a time-loop in which traveling into the past is necessary to bring about the future in which the original time-travel occurs is certainly plausible.

OTOH, it's also possible that changes to a timeline don't propagate backward. In other words, if an individual were to travel into his own past, he wouldn't suddenly form a new memory of having met his (relatively speaking) future self once the maneuver was complete. His younger counterpart would have that memory, as would all subsequent versions of the individual from that time period. But the original time-traveler wouldn't remember meeting his future self because the event wouldn't have happened to him at that point in his life.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:
Kind of like ST:FC. Picard and company were always part of the history of Earth-Vulcan first contact (you can't prove otherwise, at any rate - just like here), but we never actually see how this happens until the film.
Not necessarily. The only reason Picard and company traveled into the past was because the Borg did so first. Time-travel was necessary to prevent Earth's assimilation in the late twenty first century. Had the Borg never made the attempt, the Enterprise-E would never have followed. The Borg found during the events of Enterprise would seem to contradict this, but that episode was written after First Contact originally was in theaters, so it's not clear if such an event would be possible were it to happen in real life.

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Old August 5 2013, 12:08 AM   #28
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

Besides, in FC the Borg and the E aren't traveling into their own past if you go by multiverse theory. Rather, they're traveling into the past of a timeline that closely resembles their own. At the end the E jumps forward in time in that same track, but as far as the original timeline is concerned the Borg and the E disappeared into a temporal vortex and never returned.
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Old August 5 2013, 01:14 AM   #29
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Besides, in FC the Borg and the E aren't traveling into their own past if you go by multiverse theory. Rather, they're traveling into the past of a timeline that closely resembles their own. At the end the E jumps forward in time in that same track, but as far as the original timeline is concerned the Borg and the E disappeared into a temporal vortex and never returned.
Correct, just as there's also a timeline in which the Enterprise never followed the Borg back in time, and Earth was assimilated in the past.

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Old August 5 2013, 01:59 AM   #30
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Re: Is the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alt-timeline the REAL one?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
BriGuy wrote: View Post
I think it goes back a bit farther, and is deeper than that divergence point.

The real universe is the mirror universe, starting when Zeframe Cochrane blasted a hole in a Vulcan with a shotgun, and humans ransacked their ship.
Not quite. The credits for the ENT mirror universe two-parter suggested that the Terran empire existed as far back as WWI, and definitely by the moon landing.
Some German planes and tanks is no evidence of a Terran Empire.
The inherent problem with Cochrane's actions being the divergence point is that it's completely out of character for him, based on what we see in FC. He was not a gun-toting, ransacking lowlife. His response to having too much pressure from the Starfleeters telling him how awesome he is? He ran away.

In order for Cochrane to act as he did in "IAMD," he would have had to have been far more aggressive in personality from the get-go. That implies that he's NOT the same individual as what we see in FC.

And for all we know the moon landing shot could be in the 22nd century with a space nazi kicking over the US flag and putting the Empire's there as a big FU to freedom.
If the scenes are being shown chronologically like they are in the usual credits, then that guy in a space suit on the moon with the Terran Empire flag happened before Cochrane's warp flight.
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