RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,237
Posts: 5,406,506
Members: 24,762
Currently online: 552
Newest member: PaulHicks

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek Online Adds More Voyager Actors
By: T'Bonz on Sep 2

The Wil Wheaton Project Axed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 2

Kurtzman’s Production Company Signs Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 2

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 3 2013, 09:48 PM   #31
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
There actually is evidence that Starfleet has more ships.
Oh? When is it stated on screen that Starfleet has more ships? When?

kgartm wrote:
For one, the Federation is a lot bigger than the Romulan Empire, so it'd need more ships to cover that area.
That's not evidence. It's a logical conclusion, but it's not evidence to support your point.

kgartm1185 wrote:
Also, during the Dominion War, there were clearly more Starfleet and Klingon ships than Romulan.
Dialogue clearly establishes that the Romulans maintained a separate front with the Dominion, so one would not expect to see the same number of Romulan ships compared to either the Federation or the Klingons. Still waiting for evidence.

kgartm1185 wrote:
Anyways, maybe no one has ever said that Starfleet is stronger than the Romulans, but onscreen evidence sure does point to Starfleet.
If it's never been stated or shown on screen, then there's no evidence. Congratulations on shooting down your argument.

kgartm1185 wrote:
In the TV shows and movies, Starfleet has always had a more powerful ship than the Romulan's flagship.
What are you basing that on, as we never actually see the Romulan flagship in action? It's stated in "What You Leave Behind" that a vessel carrying the designation of the the Romulan flagship is destroyed, but we never see the vessel or hear of it at any other time. There's no way to know how successful the ship was against Dominion opponents based on a single line of dialogue.

kgartm1185 wrote:
TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
You're reaching. If anything, the Romulan vessels of this era are the equal of their Federation counterparts. LaForge notes that they have a lower maximum velocity but that they're of a superior size and that their weapons and sensors "as good as" those found on Federation ships.

kgartm1185 wrote:
DS9 - Yet again the Galaxy Class seems to outperform than the D'deridex Warbird
Based on what? We don't see a Galaxy-class vessel engage a Romulan ship in this setting.

kgartm1185 wrote:
TOS - Constitution Class> Romulan Bird of Prey/ Romulan D7/ Ktinga
I agree with this. I'll add the caveat that it has no bearing on a hypothetical war between the Federation and the Romulan Empire taking place in the twenty fourth century.

kgartm1185 wrote:
Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird
Again, what are you basing this on? That Donatra's ship was heavily damaged by Shinzon's vessel? As I recall, the Enterprise was in terrible shape herself. Hardly a basis for implying that a Sovereign-class vessel is superior to its Valdore counterpart.

kgartm1185 wrote:
Even in all of the games, Starfleet seems to do better than the Romulans.
Video and computer games are not cannon. You cannot use non-cannon material to support an argument about material that is cannon. Unless you can provide me with dialogue stating that the Federation has more ships, I'm not interested in debating this issue with you any further.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3 2013, 09:56 PM   #32
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

BillJ wrote: View Post
I wonder where you're getting your information? Rarely have we seen any of these ships go toe-to-toe one on one. The only one I can really remember is the Constitution vs. a Romulan Bird-of-Prey. Even there, I'd say it was more about who was in the center seat than them having the superior ship.
And the Romulan Commander from that episode was himself a capable military strategist, something noted by Kirk more than once while the two vessels were searching for each other.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 02:15 AM   #33
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Timo wrote: View Post
Curiously enough, we don't really even know whether the Federation is bigger than the Romulan Star Empire. There are no onscreen maps depicting the borders of these entities, not unambiguously, and there are no dialogue counts of star systems or other types of real estate.

That Romulans didn't send many ships to fight the Dominion doesn't mean they had fewer than the enemy. The British carefully avoided sending more aircraft to defend France when the situation there became hopeless in 1940; this should not be mistaken for meaning that there was a shortage of aircraft in Britain.

TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
Doesn't seem like that when our heroes encounter those vessels. Sure, Romulans tend to send two to ensure a kill, but in TOS they sent three to five ships... One-on-one engagements are also typical, and at best Picard can hope for mutual destruction there.

Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird
Based on what? The two never fought, or even postured against each other.

Timo Saloniemi

^^
1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!

2. Why would the Romulans only send a few ships to the front lines? The Dominion already outnumbered Starfleet, the Klingons and the Romulans combined. The Romulans would send most of their ships to the front lines because if they didn't win against the Dominion at the front lines, what good would their forces in their territory do against the Dominion. If the Dominion broke through and headed straight to Romulus, the Romulans would be destroyed.

3. The Sovereign class is obviously stronger than the Valdore type warbirds because of many reasons including armament. But in the battle against the Scimitar, those ships lasted what, like 5-6 minutes! Meanwhile the Enterprise took far more hits and only two sections of their shields which they regenerated thanks to superior Federation technology.
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 02:25 AM   #34
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Shinzon didn't unload on the Enterprise because he needed Picard alive. He had no such concerns for the Romulan ships.

Sometimes you have to take story factors into the equation.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 02:31 AM   #35
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

BillJ wrote: View Post
Shinzon didn't unload on the Enterprise because he needed Picard alive. He had no such concerns for the Romulan ships.

Sometimes you have to take story factors into the equation.
But he didn't want Picard alive towards the end of the story. He just wanted to kill everything on Earth.
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 02:35 AM   #36
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Shinzon didn't unload on the Enterprise because he needed Picard alive. He had no such concerns for the Romulan ships.

Sometimes you have to take story factors into the equation.
But he didn't want Picard alive towards the end of the story. He just wanted to kill everything on Earth.
And he then pounded the Enterprise to the point the self-destruct didn't work and if he hadn't wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, he would've taken her down quite easily.

Once you have a fish on the hook you don't play around, you reel it in.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 02:55 AM   #37
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!
The Federation admits new members who (supposedly) wish to enter the Federation. Entire regions would contain multiple intelligent warp cultures with no interest in the Federation. So there could be big gaps separating Federation members. The two Empires would observe no such admissions policy, pulling new "members'' into their Empires through conquest and colonization.

So the two Empires could in fact each be physically smaller in area, more compact, while at the same time having just as many star systems as the Federation. Equal amounts of resources.

The Klingons and the Cardassians share a border, on the map you (abundantly) displayed this would mean the Klingon Empire has to extend either over or under the Federation in order to accomplish this. So the Klingon Empire is bigger than this 2D map shows.




.
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 03:00 AM   #38
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

T'Girl wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!
The Federation admits new members who (supposedly) wish to enter the Federation. Entire regions would contain multiple intelligent warp cultures with no interest in the Federation. So there could be big gaps separating Federation members. The two Empires would observe no such admissions policy, pulling new "members'' into their Empires through conquest and colonization.

So the two Empires could in fact each be physically smaller in area, more compact, while at the same time having just as many star systems as the Federation. Equal amounts of resources.

The Klingons and the Cardassians share a border, on the map you (abundantly) displayed this would mean the Klingon Empire has to extend either over or under the Federation in order to accomplish this. So the Klingon Empire is bigger than this 2D map shows.




.
You can't have as many star systems as the Federation if you don't encompass as much area. And the blue section includes all the planets that are part of the Federation and it is clear to anyone who possesses the ability to read that the Federation includes more planets than the Klingon or Romulan Empires.
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 03:16 AM   #39
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.

And your argument about the Warbirds being less powerful than the Sovereign really doesn't hold water either. Let's remember Shinzon's objectives in that battle. He wanted to capture Picard, so he had to be somewhat selective in his targeting. Not to hit a critical power system or anything. Not to mention his tendency to toy with Picard the entire movie. He could shoot to kill against the Romulans with none of these factors applying.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 03:32 AM   #40
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

R. Star wrote: View Post
As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.

And your argument about the Warbirds being less powerful than the Sovereign really doesn't hold water either. Let's remember Shinzon's objectives in that battle. He wanted to capture Picard, so he had to be somewhat selective in his targeting. Not to hit a critical power system or anything. Not to mention his tendency to toy with Picard the entire movie. He could shoot to kill against the Romulans with none of these factors applying.
Yeah, the Klingons and Cardassians did share a border but I don't really care if it is canon or not. The map looks realistic for being 2D.
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 03:49 AM   #41
kgartm1185
Lieutenant
 
kgartm1185's Avatar
 
Location: USS Enterprise-D
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sovereign Class
Phaser Array Number/Type/Output = 16 Phaser Arrays/ Type XII/100,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 1 Rapid Fire Quantum Torpedo Tube, 4 Burst Fire Photon Torpedo Tubes, 4 Standard Photon Torpedo Tubes/300 Torpedoes
Shield Type/Capacity = Auto Modulated Shield System/ Total Capacity 5,737,500 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Heavy Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/10 cm. Ablative Armor
VS
Valdore Type
Disruptor Number/Type/Output = 12 Pulse Disruptor Cannons/Medium and Heavy/55,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 6 S3 Torpedo Tubes
Shield Type/Capacity = Standard Shield System/ Total Capacity 3,240,000 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Heavy Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/ 8 cm. High Density Armor

And

Galaxy Class
Phaser Array Number/Type/Output = 14 Phaser Arrays/ Type X/70,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 2 Burst Fire Photon Torpedo Tubes
Shield Type/Capacity = Standard Shield System/ Total Capacity 5,103,000 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Standard Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/9 cm. High Density Armor
VS
D'deridex Class
Disruptor Number/Output = 6 Disruptor Cannons/65,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 12 S2 Torpedo Tubes/800
Shield Type/Capacity = Standard Shield System/ Total Capacity 2,295,000 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Standard Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/ 11 cm. High Density Armor

I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.
www.ditl.org
kgartm1185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 03:55 AM   #42
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.
www.ditl.org
No it gives what someone who has no association with the various Trek productions thinks.

Sorry. The reason that being on screen is important is that it gives everyone the same standard for reference.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 04:10 AM   #43
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Yeah, you're basically trying to conclusively argue that someone else's speculation as a hard fact.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 05:44 AM   #44
Dale Sams
Fleet Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Did any one mention all that Delta Quadrant and future tech Janeway brought back?

/drops mic.
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 11:04 AM   #45
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Well a 2D non-canical map counts for nothing. And given that space is three-dimensional a 2D map might not show borders which exist so the CU and the KE could share a border.

But whilst it is true we saw many older designs of Federation ships such as the Miranda Class being destroyed, those would no doubt have been replaced by newer designs so in theory the UFP could come out in a better position in terms of avialbale type of ships.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.