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Old July 10 2013, 12:31 PM   #16
USS Einstein
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

On Romulus:

Romulus was originally a colony - I suspect in the aftermath of the destruction of Romulus, the remnants of the Romulan state would settle a new planet - and there is no reason to suspect a warp-capable fleet was damaged by the Hobus hypernova - thus their military power would have remained quite intact.

The question is simply civilian losses.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:36 PM   #17
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Romulus was originally a colony
...Or was it? Vulcans supposedly do not originate from planet Vulcan (TOS "Return to Tomorrow"), and we don't know exactly how this is evident. Were the origins of life on Vulcan the result of transplanting from some other world? Or, since the TOS episode mentions a transplanting civilization that lived mere hundreds of thousands of years ago, rather than millions, were the already evolved humanoids the thing that was transplanted? Nothing suggests that Romulus would have been the original homeworld, but it's a possibility among others.

Certainly Romulus could be an ancient colony, at least two thousand and possibly three thousand years old by the time of the eruption of hostilities with Earth. Much would depend on whether other worlds within the Romulan sphere of influence would have been allowed to grow to strength similar to this capital planet; quite possibly, Romulus had true "homeworld" status in every respect, while all other worlds were small "colonies".

All this said, it's still a matter of "civilian" losses first and foremost: lots of skilled people and leaders dead, lots of industries gone, lots of despair that isn't moderated by the fear inherent in the "military" structure of the Star Empire. But the military would be drastically weakened by these losses, too. I doubt the colonies would have been allowed to have infrastructures or skill sets allowing for the maintaining of a starfleet, so the ships would be on their own - a tolerable situation for a decade, considering the independence of Star Trek ships, but intolerable in longer term.

Let's also not forget that the Trek empires do not exist in a power vacuum. The Romulan Star Empire might collapse at the first sign of weakness because it's under constant threat from its neighbors. It's a bit of a miracle that it doesn't lose planets every time there's a political scandal or an assassination at the centers of power! (Or perhaps it does - we don't really know what happens in those constant wars between Romulans and Klingons...)

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 10 2013, 11:40 PM   #18
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
However I think the Romulans are more in to posturing and saber rattling instead of instigating an actual conflict.
I don't agree with this at all. If anything, I'd say the Romulans spend less time posturing than most of their rivals, as it's always been their preference to sit back and observe for weaknesses.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Sort of like North Korea today.
Not appropriate.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
They have the technology, and manpower but no one is serious enough to pull the trigger on a war.
Not sure how you're arriving at this conclusion given that the Romulans were more than willing to wage war against Earth and attack several Federation outposts in the twenty third century. Granted, government and military philosophies can change over time, but to say that the Romulans aren't willing to fight isn't true.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
It's like they intended to rule Earth and the Federation worlds not kill them all. Makes you wonder what they were thinking when they first supported the coup. You would think casualties in the millions would be implied by the very notion of interstellar war.
Casualties, yes. Genocide, no. There's a difference between defeating an opponent and annihilating them. Donatra, Suran, and others weren't willing to participate in the eradication of humanity because doing so would have been dishonorable. It has nothing to do with casualty projections. It's about not taking an action that would mark the Romulan Empire as a pariah government.

I must say that I'm a little bothered by your seeming disregard for even the implied loss of life in a scenario like this. Why do you believe that it's acceptable to commit genocide simply because it accomplishes a military objective? What's your justification for such an action?

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Old July 11 2013, 12:09 AM   #19
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

If the Romulans stooped to using metagenic or thalaron weapons, they would win. The Federation would likely not use such weapons in a first strike. The Romulans could potentially use cloaked ships to decapitate core Federation worlds.

But in a straight up conventional war, the Romulans would at first gain the upper hand due to the cloaks, but if the Federation considered the treaty null and void, and start putting their own cloaks into service, or borrow the tech from the Klingons, thus eliminating the one true advantage they have over the Federation, then the fight is more even, maybe even tipping towards the Federation.

The Romulans are pretty homogenous whereas the Federation has many worlds and many species to draw expertise upon, and not just humans (IE the Vulcans, Andorians, etc), so I think the Federation has an edge there, tactically and strategically. Regardless, however, the Klingons would probably jump in on the side of the Federation anyway, due to their hatred of the Romulans. If that happened, then the Romulans lose badly.
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Old July 11 2013, 05:53 AM   #20
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sran wrote: View Post

I must say that I'm a little bothered by your seeming disregard for even the implied loss of life in a scenario like this. Why do you believe that it's acceptable to commit genocide simply because it accomplishes a military objective? What's your justification for such an action?

--Sran
Wars are not conducted with preset protocols or etiquette that opposing sides are obligated to follow. It's not a sport where there are rules and a referee who will call out violators of each side.

I never said genocide was acceptable. However if the Romulans wanted a victory, and genocide of Earth would achieve such a goal. What would be the harm in letting Shinzon carry out his plan? Who is going to hold the Romulans accountable when they are ruling the remaining Federation worlds? Donatra and Suran couldn't live with themselves if such a thing happened so they left to fight against Shinzon. However out of the entire Romulan fleet only two ships went to stop Shinzon. Two. I'm not judging the race on a whole but sending so few ships? The rest of military seemed indifferent of the result whether Shinzon succeeded or failed.
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Old July 13 2013, 10:44 PM   #21
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Wars are not conducted with preset protocols or etiquette that opposing sides are obligated to follow. It's not a sport where there are rules and a referee who will call out violators of each side.
The men and women who presided over the Nuremberg Trials following World War II would disagree with you.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
I never said genocide was acceptable. However if the Romulans wanted a victory, and genocide of Earth would achieve such a goal. What would be the harm in letting Shinzon carry out his plan? Who is going to hold the Romulans accountable when they are ruling the remaining Federation worlds?
Why are you so convinced that the Federation would simply cease to exist if Earth's population were eradicated? The Federation (and its allies) would hold the Romulans accountable for Earth's destruction and would pursue Shinzon and his followers until they were brought to justice.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Donatra and Suran couldn't live with themselves if such a thing happened so they left to fight against Shinzon.
Because they doubtless realized that any attempt to wipe out Earth's population would mean disaster for Romulus, not the victory that Shinzon so desperately wanted. The Federation's allies would not have been content to stand by and watch while billions of Federation citizens were killed using a weapon of mass destruction.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
However out of the entire Romulan fleet only two ships went to stop Shinzon. Two. I'm not judging the race on a whole but sending so few ships? The rest of military seemed indifferent of the result whether Shinzon succeeded or failed.
Which has nothing to do with my original point. Genocide isn't acceptable. That the entire Romulan fleet didn't oppose Shinzon doesn't mean that the Romulan people approved of what he was doing. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

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Old July 13 2013, 11:03 PM   #22
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

I like the Romulans, but never found them all that impressive as adversaries. They run and hide every time the Federation gives them a bloody nose.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:29 PM   #23
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

The men and women who presided over the Nuremberg Trials following World War II would disagree with you.
That's just the victors making the losers look bad. It's not something relating to the rules of war, not really. Say, Germany was accused of, and sentenced for, planning a war of aggression against Norway - whereas the UK and France planned the very same thing, only Germany beat them to it. And never mind bombardment of civilian targets...

Why are you so convinced that the Federation would simply cease to exist if Earth's population were eradicated?
Well, all the characters of Star Trek seem convinced of that. They should know...

The Federation (and its allies) would hold the Romulans accountable for Earth's destruction and would pursue Shinzon and his followers until they were brought to justice.
Or then ally with them. From what we have seen, Vulcans might well like Romulans better than humans. And why would Andorians cry for spilled milk? Revenge is a distasteful Klingon thing... (And human. But humans would be gone.)

Because they doubtless realized that any attempt to wipe out Earth's population would mean disaster for Romulus, not the victory that Shinzon so desperately wanted. The Federation's allies would not have been content to stand by and watch while billions of Federation citizens were killed using a weapon of mass destruction.
Said allies might just as well capitulate in front of such a devastating weapon.

Genocide isn't acceptable.
To Romulans? They seemed to be pretty thorough about wiping all life from Narendra III. Why hesitate with Earth? It's just another enemy planet...

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
Statistically speaking, it always is.

As for only two ships going after Shinzon, it would seem prudent for the Romulan military to arrange for the absence of its own forces from the vicinity of the homeworld when Shinzon pulls off his Spartacus rebellion. Otherwise, the military would look weak, now wouldn't it? Hiding the presence might have to involve actually withdrawing most warships, leaving only two available to pursue.

Perhaps this "no warships swarming around your own homeworld" thing has some sort of a universal rationale behind it, considering how Earth and Qo'noS often seem devoid of Fleet-size protection (most of Trek and "Redemption", respectively).

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Old July 21 2013, 02:21 PM   #24
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

The Federation would win because the Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed at the outbreak of war and by the time the Allied Fleet attacked Cardassia Prime attempting to break the blockade the Romulan Fleet had taken substantial casualties, in battle and over the long campaign had caused the Romulans to take the blunt of casualties. And in 2287 according to Spock Prime Romulus is destroyed so i think it's pretty much over right there.
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Old July 21 2013, 05:42 PM   #25
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Andres wrote: View Post
The Federation would win because the Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed at the outbreak of war and by the time the Allied Fleet attacked Cardassia Prime attempting to break the blockade the Romulan Fleet had taken substantial casualties, in battle and over the long campaign had caused the Romulans to take the blunt of casualties. And in 2287 according to Spock Prime Romulus is destroyed so i think it's pretty much over right there.
*sigh*

1. The Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed more than two years before the outbreak of the Dominion War.

2. There's no on-screen evidence that the Romulan fleet had taken heavy casualties. Only that the flagship was destroyed.

3. That Romulus is destroyed doesn't mean that the RSE would suddenly cease to function. The majority of their fleet would still be intact, as it's unlikely most of their vessels would be stationed anywhere near Romulus at the time of the supernova.

4. Is it really too trouble for people to use proper grammar and punctuation? I realize that not everyone here is the same age or speaks English as their first language, but it's disturbing that people can't go to the trouble of typing sentences and phrases that make sense.

--Sran
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Old August 3 2013, 04:05 AM   #26
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

The Federation is the strongest power in the Milky Way behind the Dominion, Borg, and Species 8472 (or the Undie). It has more ships than the Romulan Empire and more powerful ships to say the least.

Plus, remember at the beginning of Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan is trying to convince the senate to join Shinzon. He says that with Shinzon, not even the Federation would be able to stand in their way. This indicates that the Federation is stronger than the Romulan Star Empire.

"1. The Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed more than two years before the outbreak of the Dominion War."

In the DS9 episode where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order Fleets are destroyed. The changeling on one of the Romulan ships says that with the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar fleet destroyed, the only real threat is the Federation and the Klingons. This means that the Romulans took heavy losses to their fleet. An 2 years isn't a long enough time to rebuild a fleet.
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Old August 3 2013, 08:50 PM   #27
Sran
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
The Federation is the strongest power in the Milky Way behind the Dominion, Borg, and Species 8472 (or the Undie). It has more ships than the Romulan Empire and more powerful ships to say the least.
They're called the Undine, and they're not actually native to the Milky Way Galaxy. They don't belong on your list. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that the Federation has more ships than the Romulan Empire, as nothing suggesting this is stated on screen. Please limit your points to discussing factual evidence rather than speculating about something that has no basis in fact.

kgartm1185 wrote:
Plus, remember at the beginning of Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan is trying to convince the senate to join Shinzon. He says that with Shinzon, not even the Federation would be able to stand in their way. This indicates that the Federation is stronger than the Romulan Star Empire.
It doesn't indicate that at all. The only thing that may inferred from Commander Suran's statement is that the Federation would be less of a threat to Romulus with Shinzon's support, not that the Federation is clearly stronger than the Romulan Empire.

kgartm1185 wrote:
In the DS9 episode where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order Fleets are destroyed. The changeling on one of the Romulan ships says that with the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar fleet destroyed, the only real threat is the Federation and the Klingons. This means that the Romulans took heavy losses to their fleet.
That someone says something doesn't make it fact. The Dominion made a number of incorrect assumptions about the Alpha Quadrant as they prepared to invade. The Founders had little if any respect for their opponents and weren't likely to say anything favorable about them regarding their military prowess. The destruciton of the Tal Shiar fleet was a significant blow, but it wasn't a death sentence for Romulus by any stretch of the imagination.

kgartm1185 wrote:
An 2 years isn't a long enough time to rebuild a fleet.
Based on what? Where's your evidence to support this point? The Romulan-Cardassian fleet Tain commanded was composed of twenty ships. Although we've no way of knowing what percentage of the Romulan fleet was lost in that engagement, it's a stretch to believe the entire fleet would need rebuilding after such an incident. After thirty nine Federation ships were lost at olf 359, Shelby estimated that it would take less than a year for the fleet to return to full strength, hardly the two years you're arguing wouldn't be enough time to complete the task.

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Old August 3 2013, 09:19 PM   #28
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Sran wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
The Federation is the strongest power in the Milky Way behind the Dominion, Borg, and Species 8472 (or the Undie). It has more ships than the Romulan Empire and more powerful ships to say the least.
They're called the Undine, and they're not actually native to the Milky Way Galaxy. They don't belong on your list. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that the Federation has more ships than the Romulan Empire, as nothing suggesting this is stated on screen. Please limit your points to discussing factual evidence rather than speculating about something that has no basis in fact.

kgartm1185 wrote:
Plus, remember at the beginning of Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan is trying to convince the senate to join Shinzon. He says that with Shinzon, not even the Federation would be able to stand in their way. This indicates that the Federation is stronger than the Romulan Star Empire.
It doesn't indicate that at all. The only thing that may inferred from Commander Suran's statement is that the Federation would be less of a threat to Romulus with Shinzon's support, not that the Federation is clearly stronger than the Romulan Empire.

kgartm1185 wrote:
In the DS9 episode where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order Fleets are destroyed. The changeling on one of the Romulan ships says that with the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar fleet destroyed, the only real threat is the Federation and the Klingons. This means that the Romulans took heavy losses to their fleet.
That someone says something doesn't make it fact. The Dominion made a number of incorrect assumptions about the Alpha Quadrant as they prepared to invade. The Founders had little if any respect for their opponents and weren't likely to say anything favorable about them regarding their military prowess. The destruciton of the Tal Shiar fleet was a significant blow, but it wasn't a death sentence for Romulus by any stretch of the imagination.

kgartm1185 wrote:
An 2 years isn't a long enough time to rebuild a fleet.
Based on what? Where's your evidence to support this point? The Romulan-Cardassian fleet Tain commanded was composed of twenty ships. Although we've no way of knowing what percentage of the Romulan fleet was lost in that engagement, it's a stretch to believe the entire fleet would need rebuilding after such an incident. After thirty nine Federation ships were lost at olf 359, Shelby estimated that it would take less than a year for the fleet to return to full strength, hardly the two years you're arguing wouldn't be enough time to complete the task.

--Sran
There actually is evidence that Starfleet has more ships. For one, the Federation is a lot bigger than the Romulan Empire, so it'd need more ships to cover that area. Also, during the Dominion War, there were clearly more Starfleet and Klingon ships than Romulan. Anyways, maybe no one has ever said that Starfleet is stronger than the Romulans, but onscreen evidence sure does point to Starfleet. In the TV shows and movies, Starfleet has always had a more powerful ship than the Romulan's flagship.
TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
DS9 - Yet again the Galaxy Class seems to outperform than the D'deridex Warbird.
TOS - Constitution Class> Romulan Bird of Prey/ Romulan D7/ Ktinga
Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird
Even in all of the games, Starfleet seems to do better than the Romulans.
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Old August 3 2013, 09:30 PM   #29
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
DS9 - Yet again the Galaxy Class seems to outperform than the D'deridex Warbird.
TOS - Constitution Class> Romulan Bird of Prey/ Romulan D7/ Ktinga
Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird
I wonder where you're getting your information? Rarely have we seen any of these ships go toe-to-toe one on one. The only one I can really remember is the Constitution vs. a Romulan Bird-of-Prey. Even there, I'd say it was more about who was in the center seat than them having the superior ship.
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Old August 3 2013, 09:35 PM   #30
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Re: Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

Curiously enough, we don't really even know whether the Federation is bigger than the Romulan Star Empire. There are no onscreen maps depicting the borders of these entities, not unambiguously, and there are no dialogue counts of star systems or other types of real estate.

That Romulans didn't send many ships to fight the Dominion doesn't mean they had fewer than the enemy. The British carefully avoided sending more aircraft to defend France when the situation there became hopeless in 1940; this should not be mistaken for meaning that there was a shortage of aircraft in Britain.

TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
Doesn't seem like that when our heroes encounter those vessels. Sure, Romulans tend to send two to ensure a kill, but in TOS they sent three to five ships... One-on-one engagements are also typical, and at best Picard can hope for mutual destruction there.

Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird
Based on what? The two never fought, or even postured against each other.

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