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Old August 2 2013, 11:06 AM   #16
Guy Gardener
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Re: Ocampa

There is no one child policy. An Ocampan female is fertile once in her life near her third birthday. Kes was petrified that she was too young to have a baby and that it might hurt her terribly to go through with a pregnancy but pissed that this might be her only opportunity ever to have a baby.

Multiple babies and bugger all males.

Consider that Kes' father died of presumably natural causes when Kes was 1 years old, which means that her mother was four when he was 9 and dying, so he must have been 8 when he knocked up mum.

Either this is the natural pairing off, that old men do it with young girls and then the women raise their children alone over their husbands grave or... Polygamy. Each man continuously fertilises a stream of 3 three year olds during the course of his short life time.
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Old August 2 2013, 11:26 AM   #17
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Re: Ocampa

What WAS said on-screen was this:

KES: The elogium occurs only once. If I am ever going to have a child, it has to be now!
To me that sounds like each Ocampan can only have one child. Which makes absolutely no evolutionary sense.
The other obvious interpretation is that a female at elogium can choose whether to pop the cork on child-bearing or not. If she has a child, she can then proceed with dozens; if she does not, she becomes a drone whose evolutionary niche is acting as dry nanny for the children of others.

The method of bearing the children outside the body might suggest massive production rates: a single child is brought to hatching term very rapidly (the vulnerable external position wouldn't allow for anything else), and then another can be started, with minimal stress to the body of the mother.

As for the polygamy angle, I'd rather think the Ocampa approach would be "life is too short for fewer than two marriages per year". Single births, all with different but consecutive fathers, and with plenty of child care available from those who chose differently at elogium. It's a working survival strategy for some of the short-lived, small-litter lifeforms here on Earth, mainly birds.

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Old August 2 2013, 12:07 PM   #18
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Re: Ocampa

R. Star wrote: View Post
Ocampa are the most silly race ever. Just how do they even reproduce? They give birth standing up through their back and someone has to catch the baby...but what if someone isn't there? And they're also only fertile once in their lives... never mind that whole mustard hand mating freakish bit. So assuming there are no dropped babies, that means at best they can only maintain their population assuming -everyone- reproduces. Both Kes and her daughter were shown to have single children so they don't have litters or anything.

Not to mention, gee they're fully sexually mature within a year of birth... and don't get old looking until their last year of life. So did the Caretaker or someone engineer them fully as sex slaves or something? No wonder the Kazon wanted to get to their underground city.
Ocampa must regularly have twins or triplets, otherwise they will die out.

If they on;y are able to reproduce once in their lives, and they typically only have 1 child, then you have two people producing one offspring. Each generation is effectively halving the population of the previous generation.
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Old August 2 2013, 01:00 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: Ocampa

With polygamy, the odds are not as bad as that, but eventually the species will still disappear.

However, the dialogue in "Elogium" never establishes flat out that the Ocampa would only be fertile once in their lives. The closest it comes to that is the phrase quoted above, and as said, it can be interpreted as meaning that the Ocampa females can only start producing children at this specific time; nothing goes against them continuing it thereafter.

I agree that the Caretaker probably did tamper with Ocampa family planning policy, perhaps even promoting a policy leading to extinction. But the elogium thing could work out fine as is nevertheless.

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Old August 2 2013, 01:10 PM   #20
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Re: Ocampa

Caretaker said that he had been looking after the Ocampa for 1000 years.

If their population had been halving every generation for the last 1000 years...

Meanwhile how much water did they have that they would need an underground ocean if there were only a couple dozen of them?
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Old August 2 2013, 01:18 PM   #21
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Re: Ocampa

I still think that the limited lifespan and number of children was a result of the Caretaker. I don't think it was something he did intentionally to them. But more of a result of him providing everything for them. They didn't have to use their powers or really do anything so many of their abilities atrophied(sp?) over time

and I liked the comment someone made before about the elogium. That would make sense. If she chooses to have a child durring her first time she will have multiple elogiums and can have as many kids as she wants. But if she doesn't have a child her first time she won't get the elogium again
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Old August 2 2013, 01:28 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: Ocampa

To nitpick the semantics, "elogium" appeared to be a one-time-only occasion: later child-bearing would supposedly go by another name. Or indeed child-bearing would not be part of "elogium" at all, but merely something that elogium makes possible.

Kes: "...The elogium, the time of change, when - when my body prepares for fertilisation. [..] But you - you don't understand. The elogium occurs only once. If I am ever going to have a child, it has to be now!"
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Old August 2 2013, 01:30 PM   #23
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Re: Ocampa

I gues we could say that the elogium is that orange crap that apeared on her hands. It's what prepares them to have a kid. Then they just have a monthly cycle or something
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Old August 3 2013, 12:18 AM   #24
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Re: Ocampa

That orange crap is called "superglue".

Can you imagine a rapish-Vorik-like problem that there's love sick idiot women all over that city GLUING themselves to the wrong men that have absolutely no interest in frakking them.
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Old August 3 2013, 12:32 AM   #25
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Re: Ocampa

The elogium sort of sounds like the Ocampa version of puberty.
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Old August 3 2013, 12:50 AM   #26
Guy Gardener
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Re: Ocampa

Do they age in immediate bursts or quickly yet gradually (Yes, I've seen before and After, but what's your interpretation?) Kes went from baby to Kazon sex slave in a single year. If the Kazon can't see the value in that, they're morons. If it took 20 years for a chick to turn into a chicken (literally talking about chickens) then Kentucky fried chicken would cost more per ounce than gold.
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Old August 3 2013, 01:01 AM   #27
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Re: Ocampa

Would've been interesting if it had been said the "one child" rule was recent, and imposed by the Caretaker. That he was letting them (forcing them?) to die out, since he was dying. Inherently stupid, as he'd've done better transplanting them to another planet so they could live, since he owed them a debt-which-could-not-be-repaid. He grabbed ships from the AQ, so why not?
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Old August 3 2013, 01:09 AM   #28
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Re: Ocampa

Ocampa was their birth right.

I mean what if some god like aliens grabbed a bunch of Indians, or cowboys or antique truck enthusiasts and forced them to grow up on another planet?

Seriously? Do you think the cowboy planet from Enterprise and the Indian planet from TOS would have gotten along?
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Old August 3 2013, 01:53 AM   #29
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Re: Ocampa

R. Star wrote: View Post
Ocampa are the most silly race ever. Just how do they even reproduce? They give birth standing up through their back and someone has to catch the baby...but what if someone isn't there?
Then they lie on their stomachs or sides.
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Old August 3 2013, 02:05 AM   #30
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Re: Ocampa

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Do you think the cowboy planet from Enterprise and the Indian planet from TOS would have gotten along?
Former deputy Bennings would be the first one to start selling them firewater and guns.
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