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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 1 2013, 09:24 PM   #781
F. King Daniel
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

James wrote: View Post
I think we saw it to be smaller than 725 meters. I don't know what you mean by the idea if being 725 meters. I'll state a couple of examples, the escape ejection scene, the nibiru scene, the shuttle entering Enterprise landing bay in STID and the vengeance crash scene. I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there, the Vengeance crash also shows a Vegeance that's clearly not almost a mile long. Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront and the Vengeance easily fits into that gap with ample room when it hits the water. Like Daniel's sig, that doesn't show everything but that's the scene I'm talking about
By "idea" I meant just wishing they hadn't scaled up the ship.

Here's a pic of the new shuttlebay, with one of the 40ft "Military Transport" shuttles parked inside. It looks to me the same size as it was in ST'09: http://www.ncc1701shipyard.com/image...huttlebay3.jpg

And here's the entire Vengeance crash sequence in HD, courtesy of Paramount France.

Back when the film opened, Locutus of Bored posted a cool map showing Vengeance's path of destruction, and it's relative size to Alcatraz Island at what we'd guesstimated at the time to be 1450m/4757ft - extremely close to ILM's 4500ft and Qmx's 4800ft figures. I'll see if I can find it.
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Old August 1 2013, 09:38 PM   #782
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
James wrote: View Post
I think we saw it to be smaller than 725 meters. I don't know what you mean by the idea if being 725 meters. I'll state a couple of examples, the escape ejection scene, the nibiru scene, the shuttle entering Enterprise landing bay in STID and the vengeance crash scene. I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there, the Vengeance crash also shows a Vegeance that's clearly not almost a mile long. Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront and the Vengeance easily fits into that gap with ample room when it hits the water. Like Daniel's sig, that doesn't show everything but that's the scene I'm talking about
By "idea" I meant just wishing they hadn't scaled up the ship.

Here's a pic of the new shuttlebay, with one of the 40ft "Military Transport" shuttles parked inside. It looks to me the same size as it was in ST'09: http://www.ncc1701shipyard.com/image...huttlebay3.jpg

And here's the entire Vengeance crash sequence in HD, courtesy of Paramount France.

Back when the film opened, Locutus of Bored posted a cool map showing Vengeance's path of destruction, and it's relative size to Alcatraz Island at what we'd guesstimated at the time to be 1450m/4757ft - extremely close to ILM's 4500ft and Qmx's 4800ft figures. I'll see if I can find it.

I drew the path in google earth from the lighthouse to the waterfront size the island itself is angled and got a 6,382 foot path, the ship would fill more than half of that space if it were 4500 feet long and in the scene it didn't fill more than half. Can you provide the image showing the shuttle itself inside the mouth of that bay in the same image?
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Old August 1 2013, 09:54 PM   #783
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Here's the shuttle in the bay in Into Darkness.

Remember also that we see a massive crane inside the bay which moves the shuttles between levels.

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)
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Old August 1 2013, 10:10 PM   #784
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Can you provide an HD image? I find semi blurry images to be unreliable no offense. The Vengeance's saucer was nowhere near the waterfront until a few seconds later, I'm going to have to disagree with Locutus' graphic.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-od7J2_TeiB...ship+crash.jpg

[Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on your own web space or on an image-sharing account which is registered to you. - M']

Last edited by M'Sharak; August 1 2013 at 10:31 PM. Reason: image hotlinked from 8of5's blog
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Old August 1 2013, 10:22 PM   #785
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

And HERE is Locutus of Bored's crash graphic (I hope you don't mind me uploading it from my HD to photobucket,Locutus, but I couldn't find the original thread)
The graphic you link originally appeared here, but there's a larger version of Locutus' crash map to be found here or here, which shows Vengeance's ~0.8-mile length fitting neatly into the 1.5-mile gap between Alcatraz and the stretch of The Embarcadero between Pier 39 and Fisherman's Wharf where the crashed ship comes ashore.
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Old August 2 2013, 12:31 AM   #786
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Remember also that we see a massive crane inside the bay which moves the shuttles between levels.
The crane was on Earth, not the Enterprise.
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Old August 2 2013, 02:52 AM   #787
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

James wrote: View Post
I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there...
Not when you consider that for a 725 meter starship, the engineering section would be about 310 meters long -- somewhat smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even less so when you consider that the length from the back of the shuttlebay to the front of the saucer is only about 530 meters; the rest of the ship's length is the engine nacelles.

It's sort of like the skepticism I get when I tell people the International Space Station is over a hundred meters wide. It SEEMS a lot smaller when you're only looking at a small part of it. That's because ISS, like Enterprise, is a very large structure composed of several much smaller ones that are themselves much bigger than they look.

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront...
It's actually quite a bit farther than that, depending on the direction you're measuring from.
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Old August 2 2013, 03:15 AM   #788
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
James wrote: View Post
I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there...
Not when you consider that for a 725 meter starship, the engineering section would be about 310 meters long -- somewhat smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even less so when you consider that the length from the back of the shuttlebay to the front of the saucer is only about 530 meters; the rest of the ship's length is the engine nacelles.

It's sort of like the skepticism I get when I tell people the International Space Station is over a hundred meters wide. It SEEMS a lot smaller when you're only looking at a small part of it. That's because ISS, like Enterprise, is a very large structure composed of several much smaller ones that are themselves much bigger than they look.

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront...
It's actually quite a bit farther than that, depending on the direction you're measuring from.

It's 1 to 1.5 miles away, I've looked it up and cited multiple sources.
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Old August 2 2013, 05:38 AM   #789
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Yeah, I just skimmed and got a dozen that put it at 1.4 or 1.5, and one that put it at 3/4 mile, which I KNOW is too close. I rode out there a few times as a kid, and it sure ain't two miles away either.
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Old August 2 2013, 10:16 AM   #790
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

James wrote: View Post
I think we saw it to be smaller than 725 meters. I don't know what you mean by the idea if being 725 meters.
What's meant is that many people refuse to accept that the ship is now bigger than it used to be, so their opinion is not based on evidence.

The evidence presented in this thread is overwhelming.

The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there
Can you show a picture with your estimates ?

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront
And the Vengeance crushes the building with the tip of its engineering section.
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Old August 2 2013, 11:14 AM   #791
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Also take account that the vengance is pitched forwards so the gap between the front of saucer to the waterfront would be greater than if the ship was level.
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Old August 2 2013, 05:18 PM   #792
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

James wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
James wrote: View Post
I'll focus on the two STID scenes, we see the shuttle entering the shuttlebay and it's right there next to the opening structure of the bay, shadows and all. The ship looks a lot smaller than 725 there...
Not when you consider that for a 725 meter starship, the engineering section would be about 310 meters long -- somewhat smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even less so when you consider that the length from the back of the shuttlebay to the front of the saucer is only about 530 meters; the rest of the ship's length is the engine nacelles.

It's sort of like the skepticism I get when I tell people the International Space Station is over a hundred meters wide. It SEEMS a lot smaller when you're only looking at a small part of it. That's because ISS, like Enterprise, is a very large structure composed of several much smaller ones that are themselves much bigger than they look.

Alcatraz is approximately 1 mile away from the waterfront...
It's actually quite a bit farther than that, depending on the direction you're measuring from.

It's 1 to 1.5 miles away, I've looked it up and cited multiple sources.
1.5 miles is 2.4 kilometers. Which means that the moment Vengeance hit Alcatraz, the tip of its saucer was at least 1800 meters away from the shoreline (possibly farther, depending on its flight path). If the ship is falling through the air at 650 miles per hour (about 300 meters per second) then from the time it hit Alcatraz to the time it hit San Francisco would be a MINIMUM of 5 seconds. Considering both the collision with Alcatraz and the water a moment later would have slowed the ship considerably, then Alcatraz to Frisco would be ten to twelve seconds.

Which is about what happens in the movie.
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Old August 2 2013, 06:26 PM   #793
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

I don't get why Sulu says there's no way anyone could have survived the Vengeance crash. It looks like a lot of people could have survived that.
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Old August 2 2013, 09:05 PM   #794
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

This and this, before it enters the mouth of the shuttlebay and while it's in the mouth.






anh165 wrote: View Post
Also take account that the vengance is pitched forwards so the gap between the front of saucer to the waterfront would be greater than if the ship was level.
The Vengeance wasn't pitched forward that much, just enough for the front of the saucer to be slightly submerged. Someone could draw an outline of th saucer and curve it back around.
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Old August 2 2013, 09:18 PM   #795
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Here is the Vengeance above the eastern tip of the island and right before it goes for a short swim.




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