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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 30 2013, 03:52 AM   #16
trevanian
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

BillJ wrote: View Post
You do understand it's a movie?

You may have a "ballet" during construction, but it's still going to take a good, long time to fabricate parts for a 1,400 meter ship.
GRAVITY is a movie too, and it seems to have considerable respect for the environment it portrays. Same as LARRY o' ARABIA. Hell, even 2010 to a great degree, even if the storytelling is a little rough.

Just one of those advantages with zero-gee fabrication is being able to handle very large jobs without worrying about supporting what you're working on.

For a Trek reference, I'd suggest Duane's THE WOUNDED SKY, which has spacecraft and/or docks that as I recall are pretty much 'spun' in vacuum, and REALLY do the 'technology unchained' GR notion (before he came up with it) in terms of creating something beautiful and functional using advanced tech.
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Old July 30 2013, 08:29 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

Zero-gee is only an advantage if you build something massively three-dimensional. In two dimensions, a flat factory floor works just as well, if not better. For one, it only takes energy to accelerate components, not to decelerate them...

In any case, starships must be slow to build, otherwise Star Trek could not exist. After all, it is built on the concept that starships are rare things and the heroes arrive in the nick of time, without backups. What possible reason could there be to starship shortage in a society that enjoys all those futuristic production resources and is vitally dependent on a sufficient supply of said ships?

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Old July 31 2013, 12:55 AM   #18
trevanian
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

Let's see. Howzabout their chunk of the galaxy is very large? Also, relating more to the abramsverse, perhaps they lose huge quantities of vessels to more powerful intruders on a semi-regular basis.

I mean, 'the fleet' is occupied in the 09, so instead they send off all the rest of the available ships, which soon become jetsam.

Also, I don't get the idea that there is a shortage of starships in this version at all; the whole business of Pike saying Kirk could get his own ship in less than a decade makes it sound like there are PLENTY to go around, not like just 12 starships and a few science vessels.

Another thing: you're trying to reconcile a theoretical science notion about the ships with a longstanding cross-universe contrivance revolving around 'only ship in the ______.' The latter is a function (or disfunction) of plotting, the former a matter of credibility for some, and no matter at all to most.
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Old July 31 2013, 02:03 PM   #19
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

Khan's genetics, intellect and the ability to learn is supposedly far greater than normal starfleet engineers, it is like asking an intelligent adult to quicly solve a child's jig saw puzzle.

Like any peice of machinery, it's potential performance is limited by budget, time and the knowledge/understanding required to break through technological boundaries that have baffled 23rd century ship builders.
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Old August 1 2013, 05:09 AM   #20
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

Theory 1: Khan was a 'scape goat. Someone unconnected to the fleet, running around causing trouble, and given Marcus the motive he needs to roll out the BFG Vengeance.

Theory 2: Marcu's was (A) an idiot and thought he could control Khan. (B) Was going to use Khan and his augment crew as his own personal army.

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Exactly, Vengeance was already underway, Marcus wanted an uncivilised view of warfare, weaponry, tactics and ideas to basically put every under handed advantage possibly into his ship and think of every contingency should it be needed.

Proofing, not building. And I suspect had Khan not escaped, Marcus would have found another way to incite war, and simply dispose of Khan and his men immediately after.
This why I keep thinking the Vengeance is a pre existing or publicly known next-gen class of ship that was jacked up on steroids to the point that Kirk and Co. didn't recognize her right off the bat. The Abrams' universe equivalent of the Excelsior project--only hijacked by a madman and his pet augment.
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Old August 1 2013, 12:43 PM   #21
Noddy
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

For all we know, it was Khan who designed the DY-100 in the late 20th century. If he was able to create something that advanced in that era, imagine what he might come up with centuries later?
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Old August 1 2013, 01:07 PM   #22
JarodRussell
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

I think the whole notion that the guy must be of help because he's genetically engineered is stupid. He might be more intelligent, but he did sleep for 300 years. If you brought Da Vinci into this time, he wouldn't be able to build a new aircraft carrier or aircrafts for the US Navy within a year.
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Old August 1 2013, 02:40 PM   #23
anh165
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I think the whole notion that the guy must be of help because he's genetically engineered is stupid. He might be more intelligent, but he did sleep for 300 years. If you brought Da Vinci into this time, he wouldn't be able to build a new aircraft carrier or aircrafts for the US Navy within a year.
This is sci fi, a genetic engineered human being can acheive whatever the writers want.

The fact that Khan is more than an ordinary human being is enough without going into all the boring details on how.
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Old August 1 2013, 05:59 PM   #24
trevanian
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

anh165 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I think the whole notion that the guy must be of help because he's genetically engineered is stupid. He might be more intelligent, but he did sleep for 300 years. If you brought Da Vinci into this time, he wouldn't be able to build a new aircraft carrier or aircrafts for the US Navy within a year.
This is sci fi, a genetic engineered human being can acheive whatever the writers want.

The fact that Khan is more than an ordinary human being is enough without going into all the boring details on how.
Those 'boring details' are probably what would have helped elevate this from fantasy to somewhat more credible SF. But I don't think they were going for that, or would have even recognized it as such.

AFAIK, the ONLY bit of Khan history that relates or supports his involvement with this uglyass ship is that he said he was something of an engineer in his day, back in SPACE SEED.
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Old August 1 2013, 08:19 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

Move Sherlock Holmes from his beloved London to today's version of the city, and he'd be utterly helpless to solve even the simplest of crimes - until he had spent at least a few years learning the telltale details of modern life. Move Hercule Poirot to today, and he'd adjust far more quickly because he's a scholar of the criminal mind rather than the tools of crime. Move Dirty Harry, and he'd be equally at home (that is, not at all!) in all eras, and an efficient way to keep law and order once he learns to use the sidearm of the day.

Khan being a clever guy may mean several different things. "Space Seed" only showed him adapting to 23rd century technology in a few hours; ST:ID showed him achieving more after supposed several years of acclimatization. With just these two datapoints on the fellah, supposing he was the same guy in both cases, we can't readily assess what sort of a genius he was. But accepting that he was one should not be too difficult.

Howzabout their chunk of the galaxy is very large?
It won't be if they can build starships in a matter of weeks. Going even slightly von Neumann and having docks build further docks would allow them to field a million ships in no time flat.

Things that could plausibly keep down the numbers of starships so that "only one within reach" is still a possibility, just as observed:

1) Ships are expensive to build, the costs not being justified even by the danger posed to the Federation by the lack of naval power. But eventually, the costs would simply go down and the ships would get built by people working under minimum wages so that they might live to see tomorrow.

2) Ships are slow to build, and have limited lifespans that tie down construction resources in sustaining, rather than expansion. This might be a problem that goes away with UFP expansion, or then gets all the worse for it.

3) Ships are difficult to crew. But supposedly there are trillions of warm bodies available, and a good chunk of those might be found on those fancy arcologies we saw on Earth already. And it's not as if flying a starship is rocket science, from the looks of it.

4) Ships require a key physical resource that isn't available in any greater quantity even if one offers to pay a thousandfold price. Okuda and Sternbach sort of suggest that the warp coils might have such substances, plus their casting process is time-consuming and cannot be efficiently hastened by replicator trickery.

If the Vengeance is quick to build, then even if this speed is due to the application of exceptional resources, Starfleet should not be a "last-minute cavalry" in general. It could distribute those resources differently into ships a tad smaller than Kirk's and rule the skies with those.

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Old August 2 2013, 11:19 AM   #26
anh165
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

trevanian wrote: View Post
Those 'boring details' are probably what would have helped elevate this from fantasy to somewhat more credible SF.
.
You mean some technobabble like from average episode of Voyager or Enterprise?

It seems you rather kill off 99% of the audience by over elaborating things and ruining sharp story telling just to please the remaining 1%
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Old August 2 2013, 02:28 PM   #27
trevanian
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

That's an era I call ModernTrek, and with the exception of about 4 TNG eps and about half of DS9, it's an utter & complete waste of time. Please don't make the mistake of tarring me with the feather of the undiscerning gusher who loves all TREK just because it has the brand stamped on the top of the show.

And BTW, sharp storytelling WOULD include aspects of the universe into the mix, rather than resorting to arbitrary technobabble. That's why BLADE RUNNER's environment plays into the story - it is part of it.
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Old August 2 2013, 03:55 PM   #28
Mage
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

For God's sake people, can we just accept that we differ in opinion and move on? The amount if skullbashing here is just getting silly. All this hate over a movie....
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Old August 2 2013, 05:11 PM   #29
anh165
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

Mage wrote: View Post
For God's sake people, can we just accept that we differ in opinion and move on? The amount if skullbashing here is just getting silly. All this hate over a movie....
It is a discussion forum, opinions are supposed to be different, and contention is what drives members to debate things.
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Old August 2 2013, 06:56 PM   #30
Mage
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Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance

anh165 wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
For God's sake people, can we just accept that we differ in opinion and move on? The amount if skullbashing here is just getting silly. All this hate over a movie....
It is a discussion forum, opinions are supposed to be different, and contention is what drives members to debate things.
Debating, sure. Namecalling, half threats, shoutmatches..... Being disrespectfull to eachother. Yeah, we're living the true spirit of Star Trek here allright....
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