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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 24 2013, 10:56 PM   #136
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
The issue is with Riker then. Feeling the need to mind read is an error in Riker's mindset as Jellico clearly stated what he wanted done in each instance. That is of no fault to the CO of the ship. He laid out clear concise instructions to his XO. There should not be any need for mind reading. Riker chose to complicate things with his hemming and hawing over a new CO's orders. I bet it annoyed Riker when Data went on behaving as if the orders weren't that big of a deal and found ways to get them accomplished.
I've watched the episodes any number of times. There never was any doubt in my mind -what- Jellico wanted done at any given time. Riker seemed to want to argue about -why- Jellico wanted it done. Hence the mind reading excuse maybe. But a captain doesn't have to explain his orders, it's a luxury he may choose to indulge if he so chooses. Hence Jellico's annoyance at the officer who's supposed to be the primary conduit to carry out his orders.

I've no doubt that Data's behavior annoyed Riker. That doesn't justify it just because his name is in the credits though. Data was finding ways to.. get it done, rather than trying to find a reason why it shouldn't be. Which likely played into Jellico's decision to promote him after Riker blew up over not rescuing Picard. Which Jellico was right, would've played right into the Cardassians hands.
Let's be fair here. Riker still probably doesn't have all the details, and the ones he does have he hasn't come to grips with. He's completely in the right to get upset over the fact that a Federation citizen, a Starfleet officer, and one of the most decorated officers in Stafleet is going to be given up for political reasons, immediately after SF sent him on an illegal, clandestine mission. And that's before we even consider that Picard is Will's friend.

And also, Jellico is being dismissive about the whole thing, pulling that "I don't have time nor the patience to explain myself to you Will Riker" attitude on him that he's exhibited thus far.

1) Given what Will knows, which isn't a lot...Riker is completely in the right to say "Hold the **** up"

2) And right or not...come on...I think at that point most people here would have lost it. Rank be damned. Fire me then! Relieve me! I won't be a part of this.

But again, I want to state I don't think Jellico is the bad guy here. Shit happens. People are people. This is what happens when you run a bunch of hush-hush stuff. Communication gets fouled up...etc...etc..
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Old June 24 2013, 11:06 PM   #137
Mojochi
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

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People here don't hold Picard to the same standard they are holding Jellico too.
I agree with this statement more than anything I've read or written in this entire thread, & more off, they question Jellico for actions that are never questioned of Picard in similar situations. If people would just look at some of the moments in which Picard has done similarly, they might not see Jellico as such a improper presence. Their perspective is skewed because this character is new & the others are more familiar. It's EXPECTED that we jump to the crew's defense. It takes objectivity to see that it could be less clear cut than that. If his orders were so absurd, why then, by the time the mission is underway is no one mentioning any of them having caused overwhelming difficulties? There was nothing wrong with his orders other than it ruffled feathers among some of our beloved characters, & in all cases but one, Riker, everyone adjusts & accords themselves properly, & Riker pays the price for letting it get the better of him

Sadara wrote: View Post
Changing from three shifts to four is not a primary issue or a crisis. It's Jellico's personal preference. It can wait. Disrupt 1000+ people for one man's preference... absurd.
That's really just an assumption of how things work aboard a starship, in an upcoming crisis. It was never stated that the reason he changed shifts is his own preference, & it's more proper to assume the captain has legitimate reasons for his orders, unless they are clearly improper, which was never stated either
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Old June 24 2013, 11:08 PM   #138
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
If this had been Picard assigned to another command and demanding these changes, I doubt anyone here would've had a problem with it.
Au Contraire Mon Capitaine!

See the very last episode when future Picard is ordering First Ep Crew around willy-nilly and somebody (O'Brien? Yar?) says something to the effect of "We will follow your orders only up to a point unless we start getting an explanation"

To which Picard said, I believe, "Trust me". And I love his bemused smile that says, "I love these guys. Of course they'd say that."
Yeah... and even that was only after Picard was clearly off mission and endangering the ship at that point that they demanded explanations. And even they were more curt about it than Riker was in CoC. Jellico certainly never deviated from his mission or seemingly senselessly endangered the ship.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:17 PM   #139
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^I'm glad someone brought that up. It takes them nearly 2 whole episodes of him acting like a nut before they challenge him even remotely
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Old June 25 2013, 05:28 AM   #140
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

We know Jellico did his homework and in fact read Riker's file prior to taking command. In my own personal canon, Jellico knew this guy might be an obstacle, what with his history of questioning orders (DeSoto, etc), and told him to change the shift rotation to see if Riker would do it.

When he failed, Jellico read him the riot act in Ten Forward and from then on, the person we see accompanying Jellico throughout the ship getting the departments in line is Data. Jellico was done with Riker the minute he failed to execute the captain's first order. I can't really blame Jellico. He was there to get stuff done and didn't have time for that BS. They were at the brink of war.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:19 PM   #141
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
^I'm glad someone brought that up. It takes them nearly 2 whole episodes of him acting like a nut before they challenge him even remotely
Not quite. By First Ep time about an hour passes before Picard says "No, we'll proceed to Farpoint Station", and Worf says..."Captain, the security of the Federation is at stake!"

Now granted, yes, Picard is going off mission.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:14 PM   #142
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
^I'm glad someone brought that up. It takes them nearly 2 whole episodes of him acting like a nut before they challenge him even remotely
Not quite. By First Ep time about an hour passes before Picard says "No, we'll proceed to Farpoint Station", and Worf says..."Captain, the security of the Federation is at stake!"

Now granted, yes, Picard is going off mission.
And all it takes is a sappy speech by this stranger who's giving erratic orders, going off mission, and talking to letters of the alphabet about how they're the finest crew in the fleet and they're willing to charge head first into a destructive spacial anomaly for no apparent reason.

Guess the Enterprise crew will go to the ends of the galaxy with a pat on the back, but can't handle a stern lecture.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:18 PM   #143
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post

Guess the Enterprise crew will go to the ends of the galaxy with a pat on the back, but can't handle a stern lecture.
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Old June 25 2013, 07:05 PM   #144
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
^I'm glad someone brought that up. It takes them nearly 2 whole episodes of him acting like a nut before they challenge him even remotely
Not quite. By First Ep time about an hour passes before Picard says "No, we'll proceed to Farpoint Station", and Worf says..."Captain, the security of the Federation is at stake!"

Now granted, yes, Picard is going off mission.
And all it takes is a sappy speech by this stranger who's giving erratic orders, going off mission, and talking to letters of the alphabet about how they're the finest crew in the fleet and they're willing to charge head first into a destructive spacial anomaly for no apparent reason.

Guess the Enterprise crew will go to the ends of the galaxy with a pat on the back, but can't handle a stern lecture.
Maybe Jellico should have brought a guitar, a banjo for Riker and had a rousing showdown.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:24 PM   #145
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Maybe instead of saying "Get it done", Jellico should have just given every order & followed it by saying, "I know you can do it, because I think you're special", you know... like Mr. Rogers

You know... I'm trying to think of anyone that came through there in a one off situation who actually got treated receptively their entire time, and I'm having a hard time doing it. lol. Granted, the vast majority of one offs were in some way conflictual. that's just how tv works. It's just kind of funny that almost no one but their small group ends up getting along with them their whole time. Tom Riker, Scotty, Jellico, Nella Darren, Shelby, Sonya Gomez, poor Simon Tarses & pretty much every character from Lower Decks just plain struggle to be tolerated. rofl

Wait a minute! Bashir! Bashir manages to get through his visit without being treated like a D-Bag. I knew there'd be somebody
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Old June 25 2013, 09:32 PM   #146
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^You forgot Barclay. He had it worse than anyone. But I agree that Picard's senior staff seemed to have a clique of their own that barred outsiders from being able to fit in. They were able to get away with it on the Enterprise, but I wonder how they'd have done in situations where other crews were involved. We never hear of any Enterprise crew members having friends outside their own crew, whereas Sisko and company seemed to have friends all over the Federation, and beyond.

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Old June 25 2013, 09:49 PM   #147
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Maybe instead of saying "Get it done", Jellico should have just given every order & followed it by saying, "I know you can do it, because I think you're special", you know... like Mr. Rogers

You know... I'm trying to think of anyone that came through there in a one off situation who actually got treated receptively their entire time, and I'm having a hard time doing it. lol. Granted, the vast majority of one offs were in some way conflictual. that's just how tv works. It's just kind of funny that almost no one but their small group ends up getting along with them their whole time. Tom Riker, Scotty, Jellico, Nella Darren, Shelby, Sonya Gomez, poor Simon Tarses & pretty much every character from Lower Decks just plain struggle to be tolerated. rofl

Wait a minute! Bashir! Bashir manages to get through his visit without being treated like a D-Bag. I knew there'd be somebody
In a wonderful inverse...Admiral Mark Jameson is treated well, (He is an Admiral after all)...but the actual cast carps about the guest star commandeering the show.
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Old August 1 2013, 05:33 AM   #148
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Those here who questioned Jellico's decision to go to a 4 shift rotation show clearly that you have little to no experience working in a chain of command/rank & file type situation. You may leave the fleet now. Go. Leave my sight!

Jellico is an experienced and successful captain and you think just because you can't think of a good reason to do that he shouldn't?? Off to the brig with you, you pantywaist! How dare you question his orders? As explained in the episode, he knows how to deal with the Cardies, and you young upstarts simply don't so piss off. He saved billions of lives by using sound tactics to avert a war that was sure to be long and bloody - and maybe not successful. So I raise a glass to Edward Jellico - one of the finest captains to serve in Starfleet! As for you group of nancy-boys, you disgust me! Go swab the deck on some garbage scow. Make room on the flagship of the fleet for some Officers with backbone, pride, respect, and honor! <spit>
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Old August 1 2013, 05:58 AM   #149
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

lol.

I can't speak for others, but my line of reasoning is not "If it was a good idea, I'd be able to understand why."

My line of reasoning is, "If it's so good, why didn't Picard already do it?" Since Picard didn't do it and I know thjat Picard is a very good commanding officer, then I can only conclude that a four shift rotation isn't necessary.
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Old August 1 2013, 12:49 PM   #150
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
My line of reasoning is, "If it's so good, why didn't Picard already do it?" Since Picard didn't do it and I know thjat Picard is a very good commanding officer, then I can only conclude that a four shift rotation isn't necessary.
Pretty poor line of reasoning.

It implies that every situation is equal and there is only one "correct" way to do things.

Picard was running a peace time explorer/diplomatic taxi. Jellico was gearing up for what could have been full-scale war.

Plus, we have no proof that Picard switched back to three shifts when he returned to command.
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