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Old July 23 2013, 02:29 PM   #31
137th Gebirg
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

It is clearly a "newer" design than the original refit. Out-of-universe cost-saving rationales aside, it has a different bridge module, newer style of engineering and warp core, totally different secondary hull innards with regard to shuttle bay and cargo hold, different turbolifts. The refit may have been an "almost" entirely new Enterprise, but the E-A is an entirely new Enterprise. It brings to question why they would decommission her so soon in TUC after being launched only a few years before - just for some hull damage that could be easily repaired in drydock for a couple of months? Maybe the E-A was the first casualty in "mothballing the Starfleet", or some enterprising (pun not intended) young Admiral wanted to make his/her/its mark on Starfleet by commissioning a new Excelsior-class Enterprise-B (already on the drawing board by this time?)

Dunno...
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Old July 23 2013, 02:50 PM   #32
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
It is clearly a "newer" design than the original refit. Out-of-universe cost-saving rationales aside, it has a different bridge module, newer style of engineering and warp core, totally different secondary hull innards with regard to shuttle bay and cargo hold, different turbolifts. The refit may have been an "almost" entirely new Enterprise, but the E-A is an entirely new Enterprise.
Not necessarily. Indeed, I would argue that not all ships from the same class are exactly the same, with some having different bridge modules, engine rooms, etc. You can take six ships from the same class that start off as identical copies of one another, but after a few decades of service, you'll find notable differences in them all as a result of different modifications to each over time. In fact, the Enterprise-A had a different bridge module in each movie she appeared in and there were changes to the original Enterprise bridge between TMP and TWOK.
It brings to question why they would decommission her so soon in TUC after being launched only a few years before...
That's where the old ship theory really works, IMO. If the Enterprise-A was actually a renamed vessel roughly the same age as the original, it easily explains why she decommissioned--she was already past her prime at the time of TUC, with the Enterprise-B waiting in the wings to replace her.
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Old July 23 2013, 04:54 PM   #33
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
... It brings to question why they would decommission her so soon in TUC after being launched only a few years before - just for some hull damage that could be easily repaired in drydock for a couple of months? Maybe the E-A was the first casualty in "mothballing the Starfleet", or some enterprising (pun not intended) young Admiral wanted to make his/her/its mark on Starfleet by commissioning a new Excelsior-class Enterprise-B (already on the drawing board by this time?)...
I've thought the same thing. We don't know the exact details of the Kitthomer Accords, but the (perhaps flippant) comment about 'mothballing the fleet' suggest there may be a reduction in the Federation's military capability. Now, and this is pure speculation I admit, if the Fleet had to limit the number of heavy cruisers in use, they'd have a choice. Maintain their current force of Constitutions, or gradually phase them out of service, replacing them with the new Excelsiors.

Having just developed the Excelsior, and probably built the construction facilities, it's not surprising they go with the newer ship. There's no sense in repairing the heavily damaged Enterprise-A, not when it will be decommissioned soon anyway, hence the message to decommission at the end of TUC. And it also explains why no Constituions are in service in TNG times, despite some contemporarys being so.
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Old July 23 2013, 05:43 PM   #34
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

A case could be made that perhaps as far back as Star Trek III, the Constitution-class was already on its way out and to be replaced by the Excelsior-class.

Then again, perhaps there were still Constitution-class ships in service during TNG, but they weren't deployed where our heroes were.
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Old July 23 2013, 08:16 PM   #35
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Perhaps the decommissioning was part of the treaty?
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Old July 23 2013, 08:24 PM   #36
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Or maybe not. The treaty was really just an agreement for the Federation and the Klingons to cease hostilities with one another while the Klingons rebuilt their economy and cleaned up Qo'noS.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:02 PM   #37
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

The Khitomer Accords are credited with odd things later on, such as a ban on subspace weapons... Sure, that's the "second" Khitomer Accords, whatever that means, but it does establish that such esoteria would be within the general purview of Khitomer Accords regardless of ordinal number.

And the Accords also involved the defining and possible redefining of borders, as Gowron quotes their ceding of Archanis to the Federation as the reason for his going to war against the UFP.

Since the Accords ended almost a century of cold war, there were probably piles upon piles of issues to be dealt with there, ranging from territorial disagreements to the number of starships allowed to the type of secret handshake required when representatives of the two sides would meet in neutral territory. It would greatly surprise me if the Accords were a simpler document than the treaty with the Sheliak!

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Old July 23 2013, 11:53 PM   #38
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

I do think there were amendments to the Khitomer Accords over the years--including the eventual establishment of an alliance between the Federation and the Klingons after the Narendra III incident--but that it originally started off as a simple time out/cease-fire agreement following the Praxis disaster. Otherwise it seemed little to curtail the size of Klingon and Federation forces (the Federation in particular continued to develop bigger and more powerful starships over the decades).
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Old July 24 2013, 03:09 AM   #39
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

It's been nearly thirty-years and there is no right answer and there is likely never going to be a right answer.
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Old July 24 2013, 07:14 AM   #40
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

It's always fun to discuss these things. Right answer aside, thanks! ^_^
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Old July 26 2013, 06:00 PM   #41
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

We should remember that the Yorktown suggestion was based primarily on the fact that the original name of the Enterprise in concept treatises was Yorktown (back when Kirk, er, Pike, was called Winter.) It's an in-joke. And yes, there's no "right" answer unless a canon production intends to address it.

My personal take is that the E-A was built from leftover parts from the Constitution refit cycle, similar to how the Space Shuttle Endeavour was built. This would explain why a new ship of an older design would be built while its successor was undergoing trials. I also subscribe to the notion that a new Enterprise was intended to be built as an Excelsior-class ship, but problems with the transwarp drive and Kirk's heroics foiled this plan.
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Old July 26 2013, 06:40 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

This would explain why a new ship of an older design would be built while its successor was undergoing trials.
Personally, I disbelieve in both aspects. Rather than being built, NCC-1701-A was probably just renamed, with minimal effort. If we believe that she was created for Kirk, then it wouldn't make sense to cobble together a cluster of spares at great expense when either of the two alternatives - giving Kirk a proper, modern ship and giving Kirk a nostalgic leftover vessel no other skipper would agree to fly any longer - would be so much more cost-effective. And if we believe she was created for Starfleet, it wouldn't make much sense to waste time and money in building an outdated design, even if the spares existed for doing so. (If starships were as expensive as space shuttles, relatively speaking, there wouldn't be a Starfleet!)

And rather than being a designated successor to the Constitution class, the Excelsior was probably its own thing... Real successors would probably already be in service, perhaps for their second decade or something, considering how outdated the Enterprise was already considered to be.

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Old July 29 2013, 02:34 AM   #43
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Eh, I could buy it just being a graft of new OS onto an older, easily renamed ship. For the record though, I didn't mean to say they cobbled the ship together for Kirk and company - rather that they had the ship laying around already, essentially useless once its testbed function had been completed, and gave it to Kirk.

You may be onto something about Excelsior not being the Constitution replacement, but then again maybe not. The crew's reaction to the ship in III seemed to be skepticism of the "Great Experiment," plus Kirk's line about "new minds, fresh ideas..." somewhat implied that this was the thing replacing them.
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Old August 1 2013, 06:29 AM   #44
Roboturner913
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

The whole Yorktown story was nothing more than Roddenberry's vanity speaking because that's what the ship was named in the original TOS draft.

I'm inclined to disbelieve it for the simple reason that, as somebody already said, the actual Yorktown was in the same movie and likely had a full crew aboard (the captain was putting all "non-essential personnel" into stasis when the power went out).

Another possibility I read about somewhere suggests the E-A was put together from salvaged components from various other ships. Since the Constitutions and Mirandas (and maybe even more classes) both were built from the same basic components, there could reasonably have been enough spare parts hanging around to make up a whole new ship with not a ton of effort.

This would also explain why so much of the ship's interior design doesn't seem to match. The corridors have an E-D aesthetic, while the bridge looks more like the original E, and the shuttle bay is tiny, much smaller than it should be.
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Old August 1 2013, 01:39 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

the actual Yorktown was in the same movie and likely had a full crew aboard
I don't see how that would be relevant. If Starfleet wants to give the ship to Kirk, it tells the previous batch of officers to fuck off and Kirk to sit down. That's simply how it works.

...Except perhaps in Starfleet, where starship crews appear to train for long missions as a single team, astronaut-style (see McCoy's comments about the training going on at the start of ST2). But that wouldn't change much, either: Starfleet would then simply tell the previous officers and crew to fuck off and have Kirk and his crew sit down.

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