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Old July 30 2013, 04:50 PM   #16
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

I find it difficult to compare these, because each attempts to achieve something different as a series finale. TI is just the last episode, so achieves nothing as a finale. ST VI is a decent goodbye to the cast, suggesting the separate directions that they will go in while giving them one last adventure. AGT bookends TNG as a series while suggesting that there are further adventures to be had. WYLB wraps up all DS9's complex stories and gives new directions to all the character. It's thrilling, but also it's exhausting to watch. Endgame seems content to bring the narrative to a conclusion with one fantastic adventure, one that is almost unbelievable (in context) but has big fireworks. It's not much of a goodbye, and we can imagine Harry Kim being an ensign until his death. TATV is more of a franchise finale than a series finale. However, I think it commits the St. Elsewhere faux-pas: it's not a dream, but still, Enterprise has been reduced to a work of the imagination.
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Old July 30 2013, 05:04 PM   #17
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

For me it would be:
1. "What You Leave Behind" - The most natural conclusion, with the crew parting and moving onto other things at the end of the war, with each of them getting their own little farewell montage.

2. "All Good Things" - Despite the time-travel / dream plot I liked how it harked back to "Encounter at Farpoint".

3. "Endgame" - This is where things get difficult. Not a huge fan of this finale as by this time I wasn't watching VOY (but seeing what's left it is the only option for third place). By the time it aired time-travel was beyond tired, the super-ship was pointless, the Borg were further de-clawed, and after they get back to Sol we get no conclusion for the characters. Neelix was only in one scene (too many) though.

4. "Turnabout Intruder" - Honestly I can't remember the last time I saw this episode, but even TOS at its worst was better than ENT's finale.

5. "These Are The Voyages" - Awful. The craming in of the TNG plot element was pointless, the needless killing off or Trip was just infuriating, jumping forward six years made no sense (especially when no one has been promoted). Anytime I think of ENT, I blank this episode from memory--it brought down a decent season.
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Old July 30 2013, 05:24 PM   #18
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

I've seen all of these, except for the DS9 finale. All Good Things was a great end to TNG's television phase, well written and very entertaining. It is sad that the majority of the TNG movies were so disappointing.

And yes, These Are The Voyages was awful.
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Old July 31 2013, 02:51 AM   #19
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

R. Star wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
All Good Things was a great double episode, but we all knew it wasn't the finale and didn't really feel like one.
To be fair, they -knew- they'd have movies coming up. So they just ended on an epic episode rather than a conclusion. Which they accomplished well regardless of what you think about the TNG movies. None of the other episodes have this excuse. Might be an interesting poll if you replaced TUC with Turnabout Intruder.
If movies are being considered you'd then have to say that Nemesis was really TNG's finale since that was their last one and they all go their separate ways. But I don't think many TNG fans will buy that one.


If I was to give my own order it would be

1.) DS9--The arc leading up to this was great and the conclusion didn't disappoint.
2.) TNG--Very complex and interesting though at this point I was starting to get weary of time travel episodes.
3.) Voyager--A very distant third. Wasn't much of a fan of this show to begin with and another Time Travel/Borg episode didn't help.
4.) Enterprise--A salute to the cast for being professionals and still coming to work for what had to have been a huge slap in the face. Just another reminder of how far the franchise had fell and who deserved every bit of blame thrown their way.
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Old July 31 2013, 03:19 AM   #20
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

ichab wrote: View Post
If movies are being considered you'd then have to say that Nemesis was really TNG's finale since that was their last one and they all go their separate ways. But I don't think many TNG fans will buy that one.
I would. As much of a downer as it is, I did like the moment where Riker recalls his first meeting with Data. A nice little nod back to the very beginning. It's a shame they didn't include the real final ending with Picard's new first officer though, as it had a much more upbeat feeling, plus an overt reference to Farpoint station.

Certainly I think The Undiscovered Country deserves to be considered as TOS's finale more than Turnabout Intruder.
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Old July 31 2013, 03:27 AM   #21
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

If movies are being considered you'd then have to say that Nemesis was really TNG's finale since that was their last one and they all go their separate ways. But I don't think many TNG fans will buy that one.
Really, both AGT and Nemesis should be considered as finales for TNG. A finale has evolved as a genre of presentation; it is not simply the last of something. All Good Things is clearly the finale as a series. Nemesis is the finale as a a film franchise, although I think there was some ambivalence about actually designating this as the end.
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Old July 31 2013, 02:39 PM   #22
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

That's an interesting dilemma. What would you rate as being the worst finale, Nemesis or These Are The Voyages?
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Old July 31 2013, 04:16 PM   #23
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
That's an interesting dilemma. What would you rate as being the worst finale, Nemesis or These Are The Voyages?
Interesting question. Nemesis is infinitely more satisfying to watch, but TATV is more assured in its purpose. That's not saying much: TATV is a jumble of plots, and the holodeck does minimize and trivialize the events the program purports to represent. Nonetheless, the purpose of ENT was to bring the narrative of Star Trek to a defining moment, the foundation of the Federation, a common point for all Star Trek series. And technically, it achieves it.

Nemesis has aspects of a finale, but it seems to be hedging its bets. Worf's development from DS9 is almost undone. Crusher and LaForge don't seem to be figuratively going anywhere. Riker gets a promotion that will take place off screen (at least we got to see Sulu in command). Troi gets to be the captain's wife, hardly a major character development. The toast to Data was touching, but it felt like it was undone in the next seen with B-4. Surely, no one at Paramount wanted to admit that they had gone to the trough to many times, but the resolution of the film makes it seem that other films (perhaps in different configurations) would be possible under the right conditions (the box office receipts that never materialized).
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Old July 31 2013, 06:57 PM   #24
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

In my opinion, The Undiscovered Country is what must be considered the TOS finale. And as such, I think it's overrated - too bad they let Nicholas Meyer make a Star Trek film without proper supervision.
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Old July 31 2013, 08:19 PM   #25
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

For me DS9 has the best ending
2 TNG
3 TOS
4 VOY
5 ENT
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Old July 31 2013, 10:06 PM   #26
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

Personally I think the Undiscovered Country should count as the TOS finale.

The Turnabout Intruder wasn't a true finale, just another episode that happened to be the last one.

And while movie VI isn't a true series finale in the truest sense of the word since it is a movie, many series finale are movie length. It was also a true ending for the TOS cast.
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Old August 1 2013, 02:23 AM   #27
ichab
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
That's an interesting dilemma. What would you rate as being the worst finale, Nemesis or These Are The Voyages?
TATV simply because it disappointed me the most. After Manny Coto took over the reigns for the last season I was really enjoying Enterprise. Finally the show was in a direction that I thought it always should have been. Then Braga decides to do his "valentine" and we get a ridiculous episode where two actors try to shoehorn themselves into an old TNG episode and it just didn't work. Take Riker,Troi and the holodeck out of the episode and it's at least passable. A finale should focus on the cast that we've come to know, not on guest stars.

Nemesis really didn't bother me as much as it did the fans. I would have preferred Picard's Nemesis to be a Romulan or maybe even a Reman,but Hardy did a good job with his role.
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Old August 1 2013, 05:01 AM   #28
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

Lance wrote: View Post
What do you think about All Our Yesterdays as a potential replacement 'finale'? Sometimes I do think its hardcore exploration of the 'big three' as characters (seperating Kirk from the group and forcing McCoy and Spock into a survival situation) feels more fitting as a finale-of-sorts than Turnabout Intruder, which as you say feels a lot like it could have been any old episode in the middle of the season.
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I consider All of Our Yesterday's to be a finale worthy of TOS the series.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...doesn't "All Our Yesterdays" have a "later" stardate than "Turnabout Intruder?"

(Interesting note--when I first got the three seasons of TOS on DVD, I'd made it a point to watch them all in order of stardate. It actually held up pretty well, really. )

ENT ended with Demons and Terra Prime. TATV? I don't know what you mean.
This...except Terra Prime kinda has a downer of a final scene, right? Perhaps with a more "uplifting" epilogue...?

Anyway--rankings; well, let's see...as finales, not necessarily as episodes unto themselves....

"What You Leave Behind"--full stop. It was a true "closure" to the series.

This may seem odd, but--I'd actually put VGR and TOS ahead of "All Good Things" (but not by much--practically a three-way tie). Say what you will about it..."Endgame" was a conclusion to the main conflict of the show--getting home. I would have loved the mains having a final scene together, talking about what they'll do next, remembering Kes and, yes, Neelix...and perhaps Janeway toasting them (with coffee, of course), and the future. Still...can't have it all, can you?

"All Our Yesterdays", for the reason Lance noted--but with a caveat similar to my thoughts for "Endgame": I'd have loved, when Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are reunited, have an emphasized moment where our trio note how it's good to be back--all three of them. In many ways, our trio were the emotional "backbone" of the series--and it would've been great to have them acknowledge their deep friendship, once more.

"All Good Things" has a nice bookend with the big-time references to "Encounter At Farpoint" (and a look at a possible future)...but did it really provide much of an emotional "wrap-up" for the series? Um...not really. Except maybe between Q and Picard. I mean--I love poker! But...was that final game REALLY much of a wrap-up? Um....

What I remember of "Demons" and "Terra Prime" (it's been a while)--it's a great finale in the sense of its BIG "This is how the seeds of what would become the UFP were sown." Still, a good finale, as I noted above, must have emotional closure for the characters, too. I...don't recall much, there. Apparently, all the emotional stuff was reserved for TATV.

As for that one...well, wasn't a finale at all, really--felt like a Very Special Crossover Episode that frankly belonged mid-season...or maybe as a "special" TV movie, SEPERATE from the series. That being said, I LOVED-LOVED-LOVED the final montage...but I'd have loved it even more if they'd have worked in DS9 and VGR, too.
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Old August 1 2013, 06:25 AM   #29
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

I would have voted for "What You Leave Behind".
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Old August 1 2013, 06:52 AM   #30
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Re: Trek.com's "Finale" poll

All Good Things winning is not surprising, but Endgame coming in second is a surprise. Endgame over What You Leave Behind, really?

Sure it's way better than Turnabout Intruder or These Are The Voyages, but it seemed more like they crammed the major themes of season 4-7 into an episode in an uninspired way than actually concluded the series.
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