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Old July 30 2013, 11:13 PM   #31
Christopher
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Noddy wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
That he was a Sikh or from Northern India primarily.
He might still be, what with the theory I've heard that Marcus had Khan surgically altered, to make doubly certain no one would recognize him.
Two things to consider: One, Sikhism is a religion rather than an ethnicity; and two, there were British people living in India for centuries and there are still hundreds of thousands of people born and raised on the subcontinent who are of British ancestry. So looking like Benedict Cumberbatch is not necessarily inconsistent with being a Sikh from Northern India.

After all, Naveen Andrews, who's been cited as a more credible possibility for Khan because of his Indian appearance, was born in London, England to Christian parents. So why couldn't the reverse happen as well?
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Old July 30 2013, 11:38 PM   #32
BritishSeaPower
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Noddy wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post

What elements from the novels in particular do you reckon are contradicted by the movie?
That he was a Sikh or from Northern India primarily.
He might still be, what with the theory I've heard that Marcus had Khan surgically altered, to make doubly certain no one would recognize him.
Considering that the in the prime universe only one picture of Khan survived into the 2200s and that no one recognized him on sight in either universe - even Dictator Fetishist McGivers - I find it unlikely anyone other than fanon will say he was cosmetically altered.

I do wonder how long before a prime universe reference to John Harrison occurs.
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Old July 31 2013, 12:39 AM   #33
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

BritishSeaPower wrote: View Post
Considering that the in the prime universe only one picture of Khan survived into the 2200s and that no one recognized him on sight in either universe - even Dictator Fetishist McGivers - I find it unlikely anyone other than fanon will say he was cosmetically altered.
Unless you go with the idea that Marla did recognize Khan and kept it to herself. As discussed above, it's the only way she could've possibly recognized him as a Sikh.


I do wonder how long before a prime universe reference to John Harrison occurs.
How in the world could there be a Prime Universe reference to an alias that Khan was only assigned after he was awakened in an alternate timeline?
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Old July 31 2013, 02:20 AM   #34
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

He only calls himself "Khan" in the movie. I'm not so sure they didn't leave themselves some wiggle room on whether Harrison is really Khan.

I know the intent is that he is Khan. But if they decide to use Khan again for whatever reason and Cumberbatch decides to not come back, they can always say he was an Augment named John Harrison who used Khan's identity.
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Old July 31 2013, 03:34 AM   #35
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Christopher wrote: View Post
BritishSeaPower wrote: View Post
I do wonder how long before a prime universe reference to John Harrison occurs.
How in the world could there be a Prime Universe reference to an alias that Khan was only assigned after he was awakened in an alternate timeline?
Well, consider Good That Men Do which is an entire novel dedicated to saying "That episode no one really liked? Well, turns out it was a dodgy holorecording. This is what ACTUALLY happened." You could have a writer come along who didn't like Into Darkness and drop the name into dialogue in the prime universe that makes the identity questionable.

I'd rather not hover toward any story elements, but a knowing nod could also take place. List of known aliases on a computer screen, list of cover identities, etc. etc.

(My brain is also wired to comics where codenames used by characters from alternate timelines filter back to the main one.)
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Old July 31 2013, 09:53 AM   #36
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

"John Harrison" is an incredibly generic Section 31 name, along with "Harris" and "Sloan" (wait... Harris...sloan? Harrisloan? Harrison??? http://www.dramabutton.com) so I can imagine it being given to another agent in a universe where Khan wasn't found and thawed by a mad Admiral in 2259.

Oh god, someone put a gun to Pocket's head and make Myriad Universes: Khan happen! It would be awesome. I'd love to see that "What if the Botany Bay were found by the Enterprise-D?" story mentioned in the very earliest of mentions of the Split Infinities project.
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Old July 31 2013, 10:37 AM   #37
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

The city shown in the film was presumably ShiKahr
How so? It's supposed to be the city with the Vulcan Science Academy in it, after all - and nothing indicates that Spock's hometown would be the location of this exalted body.

Was it Space Seed or Tomorrow Is Yesterday where Spock said that the records from the 1990's/2000's era were "fragmentary"?
"Space Seed" - but only in the context of Spock being unable to dig up the exact shipping records that would have revealed the identity, mission and flight plan of the Botany Bay. Nothing about that statement suggests that mankind would have forgotten who was the president of Guatemala at the time, or what children a nobody Captain from the USAF might have borne. Details of Khan's career and ancestry would probably still be available in full.

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Old July 31 2013, 11:34 AM   #38
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Christopher wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
That he was a Sikh or from Northern India primarily.
He might still be, what with the theory I've heard that Marcus had Khan surgically altered, to make doubly certain no one would recognize him.
Two things to consider: One, Sikhism is a religion rather than an ethnicity; and two, there were British people living in India for centuries and there are still hundreds of thousands of people born and raised on the subcontinent who are of British ancestry. So looking like Benedict Cumberbatch is not necessarily inconsistent with being a Sikh from Northern India.
But if you saw Benedict Cumberpatch for the first time, you wouldn't immediately think he was from Northern India, yet alone a Sikh. He's more European than anything.
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Old July 31 2013, 02:04 PM   #39
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

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But if you saw Benedict Cumberpatch for the first time, you wouldn't immediately think he was from Northern India, yet alone a Sikh.
True, but you likely wouldn't think that looking at Ricardo Montalban for the first time either.
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Old July 31 2013, 02:24 PM   #40
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Noddy wrote: View Post
But if you saw Benedict Cumberpatch for the first time, you wouldn't immediately think he was from Northern India, yet alone a Sikh. He's more European than anything.
And if you saw Naveen Andrews for the first time, you wouldn't immediately think he was a London native -- unless you understood that multiculturalism is a thing that exists. My whole point is that you can't judge people by their appearance. You're not supposed to assume that what you "immediately think" based on your first look at someone is meaningful.

And please -- his name is Cumberbatch, not "patch."
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Old July 31 2013, 06:37 PM   #41
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

It's not as if STID would be the first instance of televised Trek with a portrayal of Khan and/or the EW that's not entirely consistent with Greg's novels. ENTERPRISE already established that between 30 and 35 million people were killed in the conflicts, which is a lot more than in the books.
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Old July 31 2013, 06:48 PM   #42
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Noddy wrote: View Post
It's not as if STID would be the first instance of televised Trek with a portrayal of Khan and/or the EW that's not entirely consistent with Greg's novels. ENTERPRISE already established that between 30 and 35 million people were killed in the conflicts, which is a lot more than in the books.
Not to mention the introduction of a new term, "Augments," to describe Khan and his genetically-engineered ilk.

And, yeah, I could have used a handy term like that . . . .
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Old July 31 2013, 07:09 PM   #43
Noddy
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
It's not as if STID would be the first instance of televised Trek with a portrayal of Khan and/or the EW that's not entirely consistent with Greg's novels. ENTERPRISE already established that between 30 and 35 million people were killed in the conflicts, which is a lot more than in the books.
Not to mention the introduction of a new term, "Augments," to describe Khan and his genetically-engineered ilk.

And, yeah, I could have used a handy term like that . . . .
That's not really a contradiction though. It could have been a term applied to Khan and his brethren long after the Wars.
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Old July 31 2013, 11:20 PM   #44
Greg Cox
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Noddy wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
It's not as if STID would be the first instance of televised Trek with a portrayal of Khan and/or the EW that's not entirely consistent with Greg's novels. ENTERPRISE already established that between 30 and 35 million people were killed in the conflicts, which is a lot more than in the books.
Not to mention the introduction of a new term, "Augments," to describe Khan and his genetically-engineered ilk.

And, yeah, I could have used a handy term like that . . . .
That's not really a contradiction though. It could have been a term applied to Khan and his brethren long after the Wars.
And which fell out of use by Kirk's time . . . .
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Old August 1 2013, 02:03 AM   #45
The Wormhole
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post

Not to mention the introduction of a new term, "Augments," to describe Khan and his genetically-engineered ilk.

And, yeah, I could have used a handy term like that . . . .
That's not really a contradiction though. It could have been a term applied to Khan and his brethren long after the Wars.
And which fell out of use by Kirk's time . . . .
Hey, since no one in STID said Augment, it works.
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