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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 30 2013, 08:18 PM   #76
Chemahkuu
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

He has a point. Nero breaks the crew out of Rura Penthe, steals back the Narada, fucks up a large fleet of Klingon ships then high-warps it out to the rendevouz point where Spock will appear...
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Old July 30 2013, 08:22 PM   #77
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

The only thing wrong with the Enterprise at all during her escape from the Vengeance was her warp drive was not 100% operational due to one coolant feed being sabotaged.
Classically, though, when main power is reduced, the entire performance of the ship suffers.

Vengeance's phasers reacted as though the shields weren't even there at all, not just blowing up but fully vapourising entire sections of the Enterprise's hull
The curious thing, just as you say, is that we never saw what shields are supposed to accomplish in this version of the 2250s-60s. In STXI, after arrival at Vulcan, raised shields do not prevent hull damage from a minor collision; the rest of shield action there is against Nero's reputedly exceptionally penetrating weapons.

Perhaps what we see is normal ship-to-ship combat for the era?

In such a case, one would expect ships to be defended with other things in addition to shields. Close-in active defenses, perhaps? In STXI, Robau and George Kirk tried to use such against Nero's missiles, almost but not quite successfully - and Sulu then demonstrated how easily a modern starship can shoot down missiles that are not coming towards her. Perhaps that was the key - Pike knew he couldn't defend against weapons coming directly at him, with no wingman to divert Nero's fire, and Kirk in ST:ID had no prayer of shooting down the whatevers that Marcus was firing, but could have defended a third party from these very same weapons?

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Old July 30 2013, 10:42 PM   #78
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote: View Post
Nero is shown incapable of destroying multiple starships by any other means.
No. We see that multiple starships were destroyed by other means.

Timo wrote:
In the "battle" with the Jellyfish, the Narada demonstrates it cannot threaten modern starships with its missiles at all.
I think you mean: if it fires all its missiles at a Jellyfish and then some other ship that wasn't even targeted shoots them down, a Jellyfish can avoid being destroyed. But that hardly describes the general case of a battle with modern starships. The Enterprise wasn't being targeted in that scene, and we don't know how long it takes the ship to make new missiles.

Timo wrote:
V'Ger toasted Klingon ships next door to Earth. That got a reaction.
It certainly gets a reaction from me. Why were Klingon ships next door to Earth?

Timo wrote:
Why shouldn't this mysterious supership get the same treatment?
Because the fleet doesn't have a mandate for an unprovoked invasion of Klingon space?

Timo wrote:
Starfleet can't risk not sending everything it's got to stop the new menace.
That sounds like an argument for sending a lot of ships to Vulcan, a Federation world, not Klingon space. Which brings us back to Nero being coy about what's happening at Vulcan for no apparent reason, and inconsistency.

Timo wrote:
When the Narada was hit with the full might of the entire supply of red matter, she was twisted and shattered, with "carnage" in evidence, but with habitable spaces within still remaining. No different from what happened to those starships over Vulcan.
Completely different. All that got sucked into the black hole and went away, unlike at Vulcan where the wreckage ( which looked conspicuously like the remains of ships blown to pieces by missiles ) just floated around for the Enterprise to run into. Also, a big deal is made of using some of the red matter at Vulcan because they hadn't done that yet.

Timo wrote:
When Vulcan went, we were too far away to see what was left.
We saw that it was sucked into the black hole. There wasn't really supposed to be anything left.

Timo wrote:
Starfleet is rushing towards Vulcan to help, obviously constantly sending messages to Nero that tell of their ETA...
So the other ships were constantly sending messages to Nero, but the Enterprise was not also constantly sending messages to Nero?

Timo wrote:
This is the logical consequence of the change
No, that is not a logical consequence of the change. The Narada's capabilities do not necessarily change just because someone made a decision to cut most of the Rura Penthe material.

Timo wrote:
Appealing to rejected story ideas
Only the Rura Penthe scenes were dropped. The idea of the Narada destroying modern starships with missiles was not rejected.
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Old July 31 2013, 12:07 AM   #79
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Neumann wrote: View Post
The Vengeance would have been able to sustain for some time the Narada attacking yet it wouldn't have been able to defeat her.
This of course assumes it would be only one Dreadnought-Class engaging the Narada.

Wasn't the Vengeance supposed to be the first ship in a new fleet?
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Old July 31 2013, 03:09 AM   #80
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

I doubt Vengeance is that much more powerful than Enterprise for its context compared to Narada (i.e., Vengeance is far closer to Enterprise than it is Narada). Twice as big or so will equate to more room for a larger reactor/more reactors (twice as powerful in the least), which will mean more power to propulsion, weapons and warp; in addition to greater stores and magazines. Enterprise was a new vessel too, a new heavy cruiser. Vengeance can be seen as a new dreadnought analogue, with more than likely cutting-edge weaponry and propulsion -- cutting-edge for present day Starfleet, not from where Narada came from.

Say, instead of 2 torpedoes from Narada, it'll take 4 or more to hull Vengeance; Narada can put out that easily enough. Whereas Narada is going to soak up whatever Vengeance can throw at her. This being as Enterprise soaked it up for several moments without catastrophic damage (if it were away from stellar bodies, there'd be no worry for unplanned reentry).
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Old July 31 2013, 05:28 AM   #81
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote: View Post
[ In STXI, Robau and George Kirk tried to use such against Nero's missiles, almost but not quite successfully - and Sulu then demonstrated how easily a modern starship can shoot down missiles that are not coming towards her. Perhaps that was the key - Pike knew he couldn't defend against weapons coming directly at him, with no wingman to divert Nero's fire, and Kirk in ST:ID had no prayer of shooting down the whatevers that Marcus was firing, but could have defended a third party from these very same weapons?

Timo Saloniemi
Too bad Galaxy-class starships can't do the same, since -D in GEN isn't too certain about knocking down Soran's model rocket in a timely manner before it turns the light out on Veridian.
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Old July 31 2013, 01:53 PM   #82
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

anotherdemon wrote: View Post
I doubt Vengeance is that much more powerful than Enterprise for its context compared to Narada (i.e., Vengeance is far closer to Enterprise than it is Narada). Twice as big or so will equate to more room for a larger reactor/more reactors (twice as powerful in the least), which will mean more power to propulsion, weapons and warp; in addition to greater stores and magazines. Enterprise was a new vessel too, a new heavy cruiser. Vengeance can be seen as a new dreadnought analogue, with more than likely cutting-edge weaponry and propulsion -- cutting-edge for present day Starfleet, not from where Narada came from.

Say, instead of 2 torpedoes from Narada, it'll take 4 or more to hull Vengeance; Narada can put out that easily enough. Whereas Narada is going to soak up whatever Vengeance can throw at her. This being as Enterprise soaked it up for several moments without catastrophic damage (if it were away from stellar bodies, there'd be no worry for unplanned reentry).
The Kelvin took several missles, and I believe more than 4 and it wasn't destroyed by them, only by collision.

Not saying the Vengeance can take the Narada, but we havent really fully seen what it is capable of (the torpedo cannons) and that it took 72 advanced torpedoes exploding inside the ship to actually disable her, which is a testiment to how rugged that ship is.

The attack on the enterprise at warp was with phasers, the type of damage was through disintegration of the sections of the hull where as the missles from the Narada are explosive. Suffice to say after the Enterprise was incapable of firing back or put up any defense or escape, where as it was still fairly operational after taking a hit from the Narada.
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Old July 31 2013, 02:55 PM   #83
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

I'm still on the boat that thinks the Narada wasn't really that tough of a ship. The USS Kelvin was able to withstand tons of bombardments from the Narada and that ship, including the tiny Jellyfish was able to cripple the Narada by simply crashing into her. As for the 47 Klingon.... battle cruisers, red matter did it.
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Old July 31 2013, 05:07 PM   #84
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Set Harth wrote: View Post
We see that multiple starships were destroyed by other means.
That's exactly what we do not see - there is no scene showing any other means of destroying multiple starships.

I think you mean: if it fires all its missiles at a Jellyfish and then some other ship that wasn't even targeted shoots them down, a Jellyfish can avoid being destroyed. But that hardly describes the general case of a battle with modern starships. The Enterprise wasn't being targeted in that scene, and we don't know how long it takes the ship to make new missiles.
We saw exactly what "everything" means, after maximum reload time - it's twenty missiles. And against nine starships, it means plenty of "ships not targeted" that can defend the targeted ships.

It certainly gets a reaction from me. Why were Klingon ships next door to Earth?
Why not? Klingons are supposedly Earth's worst if not oldest nemesis; it stands to reason their territory would be very close, threateningly so.

Because the fleet doesn't have a mandate for an unprovoked invasion of Klingon space?
Starfleet didn't send Kirk to Klingon space to stop V'Ger, or a fleet of forty ships to Jouret to stop the Borg. Sending ships to a location between the threat and Earth is a sensible move, because that cuts down on travel time; Laurentius is probably the strategically obvious place to mount a defense against a threat from that Klingon prison system, and sufficiently far away from Vulcan and Earth to suit Nero's needs, which is why he chose that prison system as the centerpoint of his ruse.

That sounds like an argument for sending a lot of ships to Vulcan, a Federation world, not Klingon space.
By going to Vulcan, you can only defend Vulcan (which probably isn't even among the obvious targets for the threat Nero led Starfleet to prepare against). By going closer, you can defend the Federation. That's how goalkeeping works.

Which brings us back to Nero being coy about what's happening at Vulcan for no apparent reason, and inconsistency.
How is Nero being "coy"?

Nero has every reason to alert Starfleet to a nonexistent danger nowhere near Vulcan first, and then to alert the remaining elements of Starfleet to an equally nonexistent threat at Vulcan. That's how he gets to destroy his enemy in detail, and to proceed with the real threat.

Completely different. All that got sucked into the black hole and went away
Apparently not - it was just hovering there until Kirk fired at it.

unlike at Vulcan where the wreckage ( which looked conspicuously like the remains of ships blown to pieces by missiles ) just floated around for the Enterprise to run into.
Interestingly, those ships must have been falling towards Vulcan rather than floating. After all, they were stationary wrt to the Narada, which was stationary wrt Vulcan due to the drill, but not high enough to be on a geostationary (hephaistostationary?) orbit.

No way of really telling what cut those saucers in half; nothing of the sort happened to any of the ships we saw being hit by Nero's missiles.

Also, a big deal is made of using some of the red matter at Vulcan because they hadn't done that yet.
Not in the movie we are discussing.

So the other ships were constantly sending messages to Nero, but the Enterprise was not also constantly sending messages to Nero?
Sending those messages would be the job of the Truman, obviously - no need for more than one starship to clog the channels. Pike's comm officer hailed that lead ship, but this channel need not have been accessible to Nero.

Besides, we know Nero was surprised by the arrival of the Enterprise, from dialogue. But we also know he was not surprised by the approach of the relief fleet, from dialogue. ("Seven ships are on their way" vs. "Sir, there's another Federation ship!")

Only the Rura Penthe scenes were dropped. The idea of the Narada destroying modern starships with missiles was not rejected.
No need to write a memo about it; it's still the de facto result.

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Old July 31 2013, 07:07 PM   #85
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

The USS Kelvin was able to withstand tons of bombardments from the Narada and that ship, including the tiny Jellyfish was able to cripple the Narada by simply crashing into her.
To be fair, the former could be due to Nero being disoriented and perhaps damaged by the timehole transit. Somehow, Spock's Jellyfish was unable to escape from Nero when emerging, despite later being able to fly circles around the juggernaut...

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Old July 31 2013, 07:18 PM   #86
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

So the missiles were dizzy? because all the Narada did was fire them at her like they did every other ship.

The only reason they weren't pulverised earlier is that they needed the right amount of time for the drama/scene to unfold before the ship was allowed to go boom.
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Old July 31 2013, 07:56 PM   #87
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

So the missiles were dizzy?
Nero himself seemed to be. The amount of force he used to disable the Kelvin originally may have been excessive, due to poor targeting and poorer damage assessment. After killing Robau, he paid undue attention to the shuttles. And after that, the Kelvin was too close.

Plenty of reasons why the Kelvin engagement might have been unrepresentative of the optimal combat capabilities of the mining platform, then - and this is relevant basically because Nero then had 25 years to plan for an optimal use of his definitely less than invincible assets.

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Old August 1 2013, 01:55 AM   #88
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote: View Post
there is no scene showing any other means of destroying multiple starships.
Missiles are in a lot of scenes.

Timo wrote: View Post
And against nine starships, it means plenty of "ships not targeted" that can defend the targeted ships.
Not really. We've seen how well these ships can defend themselves against Nero's missiles, and it isn't anything to write home about. And if no one gets the bright idea to do a suicide run, they don't manage to hurt the Narada at all, so Nero just has to wear them down.

Timo wrote:
Starfleet didn't send Kirk to Klingon space to stop V'Ger
Starfleet doesn't have a mandate to invade Klingon space, and that alone explains why they don't send fleets into Klingon space.

Timo wrote:
Laurentius is probably the strategically obvious place to mount a defense against a threat from that Klingon prison system
When the threat can just warp right past you, setting up shop somewhere along its path is really no defense at all. The three-dimensionality of space makes things even worse.

Timo wrote: View Post
That's how goalkeeping works.
By leaving the goal completely undefended?

GOAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

Timo wrote: View Post
Apparently not - it was just hovering there until Kirk fired at it.
Is this the same Kirk that said Nero would not survive the singularity without their assistance? The film was quite clear that the Enterprise only escaped the singularity because of the ejected warp core(s). By what means was the Narada's wreckage supposed to escape?

Timo wrote: View Post
nothing of the sort happened to any of the ships we saw being hit by Nero's missiles.
The idea is that if Nero hadn't stopped firing at the Enterprise it would have eventually ended up in a similar condition. One hit did a lot of damage, and not the kind of damage you would talk to a psychiatrist about. The kind that eventually destroys starships.

Timo wrote: View Post
Not in the movie we are discussing.
I guess we're agreeing to disagree on that...

Timo wrote:
Sending those messages would be the job of the Truman, obviously - no need for more than one starship to clog the channels.
How do these alleged messages to Nero get through the communication interference caused by the drill?

Timo wrote:
But we also know he was not surprised by the approach of the relief fleet, from dialogue.
We didn't see his reaction to the arrival of the other ships.

Timo wrote: View Post
it's still the de facto result.
No. Using red matter wouldn't have left evidence behind, while gaining red matter doesn't somehow make the Narada's other capabilities any less dangerous than they were in the script.
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Last edited by Set Harth; August 1 2013 at 02:22 AM.
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Old August 1 2013, 02:33 AM   #89
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Another reason the Vengeance's attack might have been more successful: Marcus knows the Enterprise's specs. He could have tuned his weapons to punch through her shields.

As for Nero/Narda, would Nero even need red-matter warheads/mines? Late 24th C. starship, off the shelf is probably going to be able to curb stomp a ship a century or so older--especially when he's waiting like a trap door spider to pounce on them. Seemed to me that once he lost the element of surprise he wasn't doing to hot anymore.
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Old August 1 2013, 11:50 AM   #90
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Another reason the Vengeance's attack might have been more successful: Marcus knows the Enterprise's specs. He could have tuned his weapons to punch through her shields.
The Enterprise shields were up and were absorbing weapons fire, hence Sulu informing the bridge that shields were at 6%
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