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Old July 30 2013, 07:11 PM   #16
Paris
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

BillJ wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^The question isn't about what the basis for Marla's deduction was, the question is whether the episode itself established Khan as a Sikh in dialogue. And it did so in two ways: one, by having Marla state it outright, and two, by giving him the surname Singh.
But do only Sikh men have the last name of Singh?

I know we had a Lieutenant Singh in Lonely Among Us.
What about Vijay Singh (the golfer)? He's from Fiji, and don't believe he's a Sikh...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijay_Singh
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Old July 30 2013, 07:46 PM   #17
BritishSeaPower
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Singh is a name used by Sikhs and Hindus. I believe it means lion and it harkens back to the kshatriya caste of warriors. (Hence Marla's remark about warriors.) As Christopher said, the episode is more a garbling of various Indian cultural elements then a true representation. The episode does indicate that a lot about him isn't really known.

In story it's not necessarily unlikely that Khan was a Sikh by birth/baptism who later gave up or took on another belief system/philosophy. I haven't read the books, but they're on my Kindle for once I get caught up on the 24th Century Stuff.
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Old July 30 2013, 07:50 PM   #18
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Noddy wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Spock's comment that Khan's goals included "the extermination of anyone not considered superior" (or words to that effect) sounded to me like it could be a reference to Khan's last-ditch plan to use his mother's modified strep-A to eradicate all non-augmented humans on Earth in Eugenics Wars, volume 2. That said, the rest can't fit.
What elements from the novels in particular do you reckon are contradicted by the movie?
That he was a Sikh or from Northern India primarily.
Khan's blood obviously never comes up in the EW books or SS/WoK. Also Admiral Marcus' claim that Khan and crew were condemned to death as war criminals doesn't quite mesh with what happened in the second book, but I guess the UN could have tried Khan and co. in absentia after his escape.

I'm not condemning the books as "wrong", just a different take on Khan's origin to what the Into Darkness writers (at least one of which, Roberto Orci, has read Greg's EW novels) envisioned.
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Old July 30 2013, 08:42 PM   #19
Greg Cox
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

At the time, I wrote the books there was no reason to believe that Marla was mistaken, but it was also obvious that Khan was not a traditional Sikh. So I wrote him as someone who had Sikh roots, but, as a superior being, did not consider himself bound by any merely human traditions or beliefs.
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Old July 30 2013, 08:42 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Then again, that Marcus says Khan is X can probably be taken as solid evidence that Khan is not X...

The only reason Marcus even utters that phrase about war crimes is because he is attempting to drive a wedge between Kirk and Khan, in a situation where he knows Khan is not present to contest the claim. (Although being a devious man himself, he might have done well to suspect that Kirk would be piping the discussion to Khan's cell...)

Khan's blood might be something he did to himself in order to play out the initial moves in the game against Marcus. If he can use his intellect to design starships with technology completely alien to him, he can probably do wonders with biochemistry, too.

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Old July 30 2013, 08:54 PM   #21
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

What about the different design for the cryogenic capsules in Into Darkness? How do we explain that?
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Old July 30 2013, 09:09 PM   #22
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

BillJ wrote: View Post
But do only Sikh men have the last name of Singh?
Of course not. By itself, the name isn't probative. My point is that it reinforces the explicit statement that he was a Sikh. The question, one more time, is whether there was anything actually stated in the episode that suggested he was a Sikh. Of course Marla actually saying he was probably a Sikh is the main thing, but the name is worth mentioning too for the sake of thoroughness.



Noddy wrote: View Post
What about the different design for the cryogenic capsules in Into Darkness? How do we explain that?
Was it ever actually stated that the capsules seen in the film were the same ones from the Botany Bay, as opposed to newer ones they were moved to?

If that was stated, it doesn't need any more explanation than that this is fiction and different artists render the same thing in different ways. Roddenberry himself liked to suggest that TOS was just the best approximation that they were able to manage with the available budget and resources, and that the underlying "reality" probably looked a lot better.
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Old July 30 2013, 09:11 PM   #23
Greg Cox
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Yeah, I'm not sure changes in art direction (or casting) need an in-universe explanation.
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Old July 30 2013, 09:18 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

I rather think this is a bona fide plot point...

In "Space Seed", our heroes thought that the way to study the sleeping leader was to set his cryo-facility to thaw right there and then. If the facility were a removable pod, then the obvious choice would have been to move the pod with Khan still inside to the Enterprise for closer study.

It is certainly possible that all the Augments were moved from their original chambers to these pods at some point. But McCoy thinks cryosleep is a lost art in the 2260s, so there shouldn't have been a ready supply of such things. Doesn't mean S31 couldn't have acquired such pods somehow - or even that the starship that found the Botany Bay would have been unable to construct such pods on the spot.

In any case, apart from the faces of the heroes, these pods would be our very first thing that has been seen both in the new movies and the original continuity. Everything else in the movies (not counting things never seen in the original continuity and thus presenting no continuity problems anyway) is from an alternate timeline, arguably manufactured well after Nero stirred the timestream - up to and including the skyline of San Francisco!

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Old July 30 2013, 09:38 PM   #25
Christopher
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Yeah, I'm not sure changes in art direction (or casting) need an in-universe explanation.
Right, any more than Marvel Comics needs to explain why Peter Parker's face looks different in an issue drawn by John Romita, Jr. than it looks in an issue drawn by Humberto Ramos. It's just interpretation.

For that matter, it doesn't need to be explained why everything in the Trek universe went from looking like live-action in TOS to looking like cartoons in TAS.


Timo wrote: View Post
In "Space Seed", our heroes thought that the way to study the sleeping leader was to set his cryo-facility to thaw right there and then. If the facility were a removable pod, then the obvious choice would have been to move the pod with Khan still inside to the Enterprise for closer study.
You're forgetting the events of the episode.
MCCOY: We've triggered something, all right. His heart beat's increasing. Now passing eight beats per minute. There are some signs of respiration beginning.
SCOTT: This one was probably programmed to be triggered first.
KIRK: Could he be the leader? The leader. Lieutenant?
MARLA: (dragging herself back from just gazing at the man) Yes, sir. The leader was often set to revive first. This would allow him to decide whether the conditions warranted revival of the others.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

They didn't choose to awaken Khan; that happened automatically as soon as they came aboard. So the same would've happened even if the pods were removable.


In any case, apart from the faces of the heroes, these pods would be our very first thing that has been seen both in the new movies and the original continuity. Everything else in the movies (not counting things never seen in the original continuity and thus presenting no continuity problems anyway) is from an alternate timeline, arguably manufactured well after Nero stirred the timestream - up to and including the skyline of San Francisco!
True, the Kelvin is from an era we never actually saw onscreen, but its reasonable to assume that its technology designs represent a more modern, sophisticated interpretation of what pilot-era technology would have "really" looked like.

There's also Vulcan. The city shown in the film was presumably ShiKahr, but the architecture and the surrounding landscape didn't match what we saw in "Yesteryear." True, they filmed at Vasquez Rocks just as The Voyage Home did for Vulcan in at least one shot, but they multiplied and exaggerated the Vasquez Rocks cliff by about a thousand.
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Old July 30 2013, 09:38 PM   #26
BritishSeaPower
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Christopher wrote: View Post

Noddy wrote: View Post
What about the different design for the cryogenic capsules in Into Darkness? How do we explain that?
Was it ever actually stated that the capsules seen in the film were the same ones from the Botany Bay, as opposed to newer ones they were moved to?

If that was stated, it doesn't need any more explanation than that this is fiction and different artists render the same thing in different ways. Roddenberry himself liked to suggest that TOS was just the best approximation that they were able to manage with the available budget and resources, and that the underlying "reality" probably looked a lot better.
I believe McCoy explicitly says in Into Darkness that the cryotubes are 300 years old? (An exchange along the lines of "We can't open the tubes." "Too advanced?" "No, too primitive.")
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Old July 30 2013, 10:53 PM   #27
Noddy
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Spock's comment that Khan's goals included "the extermination of anyone not considered superior" (or words to that effect) sounded to me like it could be a reference to Khan's last-ditch plan to use his mother's modified strep-A to eradicate all non-augmented humans on Earth in Eugenics Wars, volume 2. That said, the rest can't fit.
What elements from the novels in particular do you reckon are contradicted by the movie?
That he was a Sikh or from Northern India primarily.
He might still be, what with the theory I've heard that Marcus had Khan surgically altered, to make doubly certain no one would recognize him.
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Old July 30 2013, 11:00 PM   #28
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

BritishSeaPower wrote: View Post

I believe McCoy explicitly says in Into Darkness that the cryotubes are 300 years old? (An exchange along the lines of "We can't open the tubes." "Too advanced?" "No, too primitive.")
Yup.
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Old July 30 2013, 11:09 PM   #29
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Yeah, McCoy says the cryo pods are ancient - they're clearly meant to be the same ones from the Botany Bay, even if they closer resemble the ones from "The Neutral Zone" than "Space Seed". It's a difference that makes no difference, IMO.
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Old July 30 2013, 11:11 PM   #30
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
At the time, I wrote the books there was no reason to believe that Marla was mistaken, but it was also obvious that Khan was not a traditional Sikh. So I wrote him as someone who had Sikh roots, but, as a superior being, did not consider himself bound by any merely human traditions or beliefs.

Was it Space Seed or Tomorrow Is Yesterday where Spock said that the records from the 1990's/2000's era were "fragmentary"? In this case it might indicate that the divergence of the universes occurred centuries before Enterprise, since the Roddenberry Universe might not have that piece in their computers, while the Abrams universe has that piece. Or it could simply be that that fact was only available in hard copy books that Admiral Marcus had access to on Earth, but was not available in digital form for the Enterprise to access in the Roddenberry universe.
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