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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 25 2013, 06:46 PM   #31
energize6
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

I never understood the curse to begin with. Of the original series films, the only one I think is poor is The Final Frontier. However, that really comes down to I just think it was a stupid movie. The last Trek movie I liked was The Undiscovered Country so Generations to Into Darkness were all terrible. The supposed "curse" never really struck a chord with me because it's inconsistent.
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Old July 26 2013, 02:46 PM   #32
sonak
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

Noname Given wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
.
Generations actually has an original story, a good villain, and solid pacing. The only real problems are some plot holes and Kirk's underwhelming death.
Genrations was a POORLY done two hour TV episode.

The set lighting was atrocious. As for the story, it was a hackneyed mess, and they set up stuff they didn't even bother to incorporate later.

Examples?

1) At the start of the film Picard is informed his nephew died in aa fire back on Earth and Picard is VERY upset about this, HOWEVER, when he gets in the Nexus (and he was told earlier by Guinan "You can exit anywhere in time and space"; he doesn't even consider (or from appearances in the film remember his nephew's death) exiting back on Earth and saving his nephew (after which he could very easily stop the entire Soran situation).

2) Ignoring the above - 'real' Guinan tells Picard it's REALLY hard to leave the Nexus (even Guinan couldn't do it willingly herself) and she says she would still return tom it if she could. Yet, once Picard is in the Nexus, he pretty easily shrugs off the influence - somehow meets Guinan's 'ghost' who basically tells him 'Hey, Kirk's here too and from his perspective just arrived too' - then manages to take him to Kirk; and in a short two minute discussion; they hops horses and ride out of the Nexux no muss or fuss - and at just seconds before the events are about to repeat themselves -- WTF?!

3) For Picard (a Frenchman by all accounts from the TNG series background) - the Nexus christmas scene sutre look rather British to me.

4) There were rehashed element in Generations too. If you compare them the Generations 1701-D Warp Core breach scene sequence was nearly a short for shot redo of the Warp Core breach scene sequence from the TNG episode Yesterday's Enterprise

So, sorry, even though ST:TMP was a two hour rehash/remake of the changeling; at least it was done with flash and excellent visuals, and they tried to tell the story big. Plus the DVD released Director's Cut really improves ST:TMP watchability too. Given all it's flaws, I doubt a similar 'Director's Cut' version of Generations could save what is ultimately a lackluster script.

Generations was a poorly thought out TV series level episode that they just used panavision lenses to shoot. Hell the actual 2 episode TNG series finale All Good Things was better written (for all it's flaws) and IMO would have been the better script to shot as a TNG feature film.

But, to each his own.

you can nitpick plot holes in all of the movies, TWOK is full of them despite being so popular.(how do they misplace an entire planet? Why is Kirk so lazy/reluctant about raising shields? How is Khan so stupid that he can't figure out the most basic and blatantly coded message imaginable? if hours were days indeed...)


you harp on Generation's plot holes, which are no more or less than any of the other movies, because you already dislike it. And I think it's VERY cinematic.

but as you wrote, to each his own.
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Old July 26 2013, 03:18 PM   #33
Kinokima
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

I know very little about the TNG films but from what everything I read of the TOS movies, movie three was definitely well received. As I said on another thread if it wasn't would they have even let Nimoy direct number 4? They didn't let him do two movies out of the goodness of their hearts. People say the 3rd film is the best of the odd number films, but that is just silly. It was considered a good film at the time. Maybe today it is considered a bit weaker compared to Nos 2 and 4 but I think that has more to do with being in the middle. I think if you look at all the Trek films it was considered a good one.

I think it must be true what people say that the curse of the odd movies being bad started with movie 5 and that movies overall failure.

Whatever you think of movies 1 and 5 (and there are things I personally like and dislike about both these movies). Both movies 1 and 5 were poorly received, for different reasons and then 6 came along and things ended on a good note (as far as fans and critics reviews).

Like I said I don't know much about the TNG films except First Contact is the most popular one (again an even film). This I assume strengthened the whole even/odd curse thing but I don't think any of the other TNG films match up with it (again from what I've seen from critics reviews). Neither the next two TNG films (even or odd) seem to have been well received.
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Old July 26 2013, 03:24 PM   #34
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

(Generations) The lighting and cinematography is top rate - two of the better aspects of the movie.
I agree saying lightning and cinematography are two of the best aspects because it is the same as saying other aspects are bad. Like PLOT, ACTING, SETTING, WRITING, not reusing Klingon ship explosion.... etc....
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Old July 26 2013, 04:09 PM   #35
Hober Mallow
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

sonak wrote: View Post
you harp on Generation's plot holes, which are no more or less than any of the other movies, because you already dislike it. And I think it's VERY cinematic.

but as you wrote, to each his own.
I don't care for any of the TNG films (not even FC), but I thought GEN had the best potential of them all. That said, GEN fails on the most basic level. The main the setup for the movie, the setup for the two main characters, are completely screwed up in the payoff and the entire film falls apart as a result.

I've posted in a couple of other threads about this, but basically the main problem with GEN is this:

Kirk's character arc is set up at the beginning of the film. We see Kirk is unhappy in retirement. The key to his character as shown at the beginning of the movie is that he needs to be in the middle of the action.

Then we get Picard's setup. In the wake of a recent family tragedy, he's starting to think about the life he's forfeited ("There will be no more Picards...)

Both Kirk and Picard end up in the Nexus, a place where everyone gets what he really wants.

Either the Nexus or the writers screwed up big time, because the payoff in the Nexus is the complete opposite of the setup. We're now told that what Kirk really wants is a quiet retirement. Um... huh? Wasn't the Nexus watching the first part of the movie? Then we have Picard, though he'd love to stay with his make-believe family, is itching to get back to the action. Um, wasn't that supposed to be Kirk's payoff?

Logically, the way the entire movie was setup, it should be Kirk trying to convince Picard to go back. Obviously, Picard is the main hero, and the writers want him to take the lead active role. But in that case, you have a different movie, and you should have set it up differently. Instead, you have a schizophrenic film that isn't sure what it's doing.

Both TWOK and GEN have plot holes, but it all comes down to setup and payoff. As long as you provide the perfect payoff to the characters you've set up, audiences will be forgiving about plot holes. In the case of GEN, it was a complete failure to provide the proper payoff.
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Old July 26 2013, 04:26 PM   #36
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
The lighting and cinematography is top rate - two of the better aspects of the movie.
I agree saying lightning and cinematography are two of the best aspects because it is the same as saying other aspects are bad. Like PLOT, ACTING, SETTING, WRITING, not reusing Klingon ship explosion.... etc....


No, no it isn't. It's the same as saying the lighting and cinematography is top rate because, umm, that's what I wrote. Beyond that, your interpolation of my comment is asinine and purely your own erroneous derivation of my opinion.
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Old July 26 2013, 07:25 PM   #37
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

I like them all. Some more, some less. (I haven't seen STID yet, but I'm sure I'll like it just fine too.)

But I come from the generation of fans who sat through the Trek drought of the mid-late 70s. For me, any new onscreen Trek is good. Like pizza.

I like pizza.
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Old July 27 2013, 05:24 PM   #38
sonak
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
you harp on Generation's plot holes, which are no more or less than any of the other movies, because you already dislike it. And I think it's VERY cinematic.

but as you wrote, to each his own.
I don't care for any of the TNG films (not even FC), but I thought GEN had the best potential of them all. That said, GEN fails on the most basic level. The main the setup for the movie, the setup for the two main characters, are completely screwed up in the payoff and the entire film falls apart as a result.

I've posted in a couple of other threads about this, but basically the main problem with GEN is this:

Kirk's character arc is set up at the beginning of the film. We see Kirk is unhappy in retirement. The key to his character as shown at the beginning of the movie is that he needs to be in the middle of the action.

Then we get Picard's setup. In the wake of a recent family tragedy, he's starting to think about the life he's forfeited ("There will be no more Picards...)

Both Kirk and Picard end up in the Nexus, a place where everyone gets what he really wants.

Either the Nexus or the writers screwed up big time, because the payoff in the Nexus is the complete opposite of the setup. We're now told that what Kirk really wants is a quiet retirement. Um... huh? Wasn't the Nexus watching the first part of the movie? Then we have Picard, though he'd love to stay with his make-believe family, is itching to get back to the action. Um, wasn't that supposed to be Kirk's payoff?

Logically, the way the entire movie was setup, it should be Kirk trying to convince Picard to go back. Obviously, Picard is the main hero, and the writers want him to take the lead active role. But in that case, you have a different movie, and you should have set it up differently. Instead, you have a schizophrenic film that isn't sure what it's doing.

Both TWOK and GEN have plot holes, but it all comes down to setup and payoff. As long as you provide the perfect payoff to the characters you've set up, audiences will be forgiving about plot holes. In the case of GEN, it was a complete failure to provide the proper payoff.

I can understand that interpretation of the Nexus scenes, but I think the idea was to show that the fantasies of both characters were sort of "the road not taken" fantasies. Kirk was considering a different path he might have taken to be happy, as was Picard. I'm not even sure Picard rejects his fantasy because it's wrong for him, as much as he does it because he knows that it's all an illusion.

I do agree that the Nexus part of the movie has some problems(Guinan acts like it's almost impossible to want to leave it, and Picard wants to leave after what seems like twenty minutes.)
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Old July 27 2013, 05:37 PM   #39
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

I prefer III to II and I prefer V to VI, so the "curse" has always been BS to me.
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Old July 30 2013, 04:01 AM   #40
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

As a critic:

Star Trek - 4/10
Star Trek 2 - 9/10
Star Trek 3 - 7/10
Star Trek 4 - 8/10
Sar Trek 5 - 4/10
Star Trek 6 - 8/10
Star Trek 7 - 5/10
Star Trek 8 - 8/10
Star Trek 9 - 6/10
Star Trek 10 - 3/10
Star Trek 11 - 8/10
Star Trek 12 - 9/10
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Old July 30 2013, 04:29 PM   #41
Hober Mallow
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

How many times I've seen it + whether or not I plan on ever watching it again.

TMP -- 10+ / possibly
TWOK -- 10+ / probably
TSFS -- 10+ / no
TVH -- 10+ / possibly
TFF -- About 5 / no
TUC -- 10+ / no

GEN -- About 5 / no
FC -- About 5 / no
INS -- 3 / no
NEM -- 1 / no

ST09 -- 2 / no
ID -- 1 / no
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Old July 31 2013, 12:23 AM   #42
BillJ
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
How many times I've seen it + whether or not I plan on ever watching it again.
I think this is a great way to look at the films...

The Motion Picture - 20+/Definitely
The Wrath of Khan - 20+/Definitely
The Search for Spock - 25+/Definitely
The Voyage Home - 15+/Probably Not
The Final Frontier - 15+/Likely
The Undiscovered Country - 30+/Definitely
Generations - 10+/Probably Not
First Contact - 10+/No
Insurrection - 10+/No
Nemesis - 10+/Likely
Star Trek 2009 - 15+/Definitely
Into Darkness -4/Definitely

When you factor in the episodes, I've spent a ton of my life watching Star Trek.
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Old July 31 2013, 11:17 PM   #43
JarodRussell
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

Why do people always say Galaxy Quest is a Star Trek movie? What are ya smoking? Is Spaceballs a Star Wars movie?


Noname Given wrote: View Post
Genrations was a POORLY done two hour TV episode.

The set lighting was atrocious.
Seriously? Of all things?
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Old July 31 2013, 11:44 PM   #44
marksound
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Why do people always say Galaxy Quest is a Star Trek movie? What are ya smoking? Is Spaceballs a Star Wars movie?
"My favorite Star Trek movie? Galaxy Quest."

It's a joke, a little dig. GQ was an obvious parody of Star Trek, but in some ways it was more like Star Trek than some of the actual Trek films.

I've even said it myself from time to time.
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Old August 1 2013, 05:44 PM   #45
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Re: The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

It hits trek gracenotes better than a lot of the real thing followups (the bickering, the moments when things come together.)

BTW, the NTE-3120 designation is supposed to be an in-joke standing for NotTheEnterprise.

That's in case anybody thought it really stood for Naval Thermian Endeavour number.
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