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Old July 29 2013, 05:45 PM   #1
Noddy
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STID and the Eugenics Wars books

How do fans of the Eugenics Wars books by Greg Cox feel about the use and interpretation of Khan in the latest movie?
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Old July 29 2013, 05:57 PM   #2
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

My memory is a bit sketchy (Greg - can you help out ?), but I don't think there is much of a problem - the major changes are post revival which can be seen as due to the new timeline. The 'magic blood' could just be something that we didn't know about in the original timeline, or something Bones did to it in STID.

I don't think there is any way to reconcile the new comics back story for Khan though.
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Old July 29 2013, 06:53 PM   #3
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Spock's comment that Khan's goals included "the extermination of anyone not considered superior" (or words to that effect) sounded to me like it could be a reference to Khan's last-ditch plan to use his mother's modified strep-A to eradicate all non-augmented humans on Earth in Eugenics Wars, volume 2. That said, the rest can't fit.

I read the EW books in the run-up to ID, and I'm afraid I wasn't a fan of them. Although enjoyable in parts, they were too slavish to "Space Seed" in making Khan a Sikh, which was obviously a mistake by Marla. Sikh's are forbidden from removing hair from any part of the body, and Khan was not only clean shaven, but had a waxed chest too! I found the rest too fanwanky. A nice try to reconcile RL with Trek, but one doomed to failure. The framing story was a rehash of "The Masterpiece Society" and didn't engage me one bit.

Khan's racial identity is a complete muddle in canon, going from brownfaced faux-Indian in SS to White Hispanic in WoK to White British in ID. Now I'm thinking that he was never Indian; that was another epic fail from Marla (the pic of Khan in a turban was painted by Marla too, excusing that). He was only tanned - and he lost his tan on Ceti Alpha V in Prime Trek and in the Section 31 R&D labs in the AU. Thusly, all that's changed is his accent - no more of a big deal than Kirk's eye colour, IMO.
Admittedly this doesn't explain the complete change of his followers between SS and WoK. One thing at a time
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Old July 29 2013, 08:38 PM   #4
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Complete change? Both "Space Seed" and TWoK featured an all-Aryan collection of goons. Supposedly, there were non-Aryans in "Space Seed" somewhere off camera, as Scotty claims Khan's team was of mixed race and we get the impression Khan woke up even those among his seventy-something followers who weren't of pure blood... But the same could apply to TWoK.

Why should we think Khan would have chest hair? For all we know, he was unable to grow a beard, too... "Shaving" doesn't really fit, as we'd see stubble after nearly three centuries of sleep.

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Old July 29 2013, 09:02 PM   #5
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Timo wrote: View Post
Complete change? Both "Space Seed" and TWoK featured an all-Aryan collection of goons. Supposedly, there were non-Aryans in "Space Seed" somewhere off camera, as Scotty claims Khan's team was of mixed race and we get the impression Khan woke up even those among his seventy-something followers who weren't of pure blood... But the same could apply to TWoK.
They also all turned blond. And were somehow all younger. Although admittedly we didn't see all 72 in "Space Seed"
Why should we think Khan would have chest hair? For all we know, he was unable to grow a beard, too... "Shaving" doesn't really fit, as we'd see stubble after nearly three centuries of sleep.

Timo Saloniemi
Marla of course wouldn't know if Khan had some hair growth defect or was perhaps engineered to be a dolphin. Her line about him being "probably a Sikh" is completely flawed.
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Old July 29 2013, 09:23 PM   #6
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

"Completely" is too strong an expression: if she had some reason to think Khan was a Sikh, then him not being able to grow body hair (like a significant percentage of mankind today, really) would be a logical conclusion that could go unvoiced.

Perhaps she recognized Khan's clothing? At the rate things are going, mixing of cultures geographically might be out of fashion by the time we learn to launch ships like that; in the Trek universe, things might have gone downhill faster, what with "Eugenics Wars" and the like. In such an environment, if somebody dares dress like a Sikh from northern India, he either is one, or wants to pass himself as one...

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Old July 29 2013, 11:59 PM   #7
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Does Marla, or anyone else for that matter, ever actually say that Khan is a Sikh in dialogue in the episode? Been such a while since I watched it, I can barely remember. In any case, Greg acknowledged it in his books, while also providing a rationale for why Khan was clean-shaven.
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Old July 30 2013, 12:37 AM   #8
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

It's all in this video, at about the halfway point and then at the end


"From the northern India region I'd guess. Probably a Sikh, they were the most fantastic warriors!"
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Old July 30 2013, 12:53 AM   #9
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

And of course his surname is Singh, like most (all?) Sikh men.
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Old July 30 2013, 02:53 AM   #10
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Christopher wrote: View Post
And of course his surname is Singh, like most (all?) Sikh men.
Doesn't she speculate he is a Sikh, before she knows his name?

Space Seed wrote:
SCOTT: This one was probably programmed to be triggered first.
KIRK: Could he be the leader? The leader. Lieutenant?
MARLA: (dragging herself back from just gazing at the man) Yes, sir. The leader was often set to revive first. This would allow him to decide whether the conditions warranted revival of the others.
MCCOY: Heart beat now approaching forty per minute. The respiration pattern is firming up.
MARLA: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors.
Yep, Kahn's still in his hibernation chamber when Marla makes her guess.
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Old July 30 2013, 03:15 AM   #11
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

^The question isn't about what the basis for Marla's deduction was, the question is whether the episode itself established Khan as a Sikh in dialogue. And it did so in two ways: one, by having Marla state it outright, and two, by giving him the surname Singh.
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Old July 30 2013, 03:30 AM   #12
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Christopher wrote: View Post
^The question isn't about what the basis for Marla's deduction was, the question is whether the episode itself established Khan as a Sikh in dialogue. And it did so in two ways: one, by having Marla state it outright, and two, by giving him the surname Singh.
True.

Though the question remains, why did Marla think he was Sikh? Did she know he was Khan?
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Old July 30 2013, 05:01 PM   #13
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Spock's comment that Khan's goals included "the extermination of anyone not considered superior" (or words to that effect) sounded to me like it could be a reference to Khan's last-ditch plan to use his mother's modified strep-A to eradicate all non-augmented humans on Earth in Eugenics Wars, volume 2. That said, the rest can't fit.
What elements from the novels in particular do you reckon are contradicted by the movie?
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Old July 30 2013, 05:19 PM   #14
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Though the question remains, why did Marla think he was Sikh? Did she know he was Khan?
The real-life answer: the costume, makeup, and hair departments didn't do their homework about Sikhs and so the character's look didn't fit the script. It's typical of '60s TV portrayals of Asia that they wouldn't have cared much about accuracy or authenticity.

In-story, yeah, maybe Marla suspected who he was and kept quiet. She was a student of such dictators and had kind of a fetish about them.
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Old July 30 2013, 06:08 PM   #15
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Re: STID and the Eugenics Wars books

Christopher wrote: View Post
^The question isn't about what the basis for Marla's deduction was, the question is whether the episode itself established Khan as a Sikh in dialogue. And it did so in two ways: one, by having Marla state it outright, and two, by giving him the surname Singh.
But do only Sikh men have the last name of Singh?

I know we had a Lieutenant Singh in Lonely Among Us.
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