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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old July 29 2013, 05:07 AM   #31
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Mission to Mars

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
The funny part is that Columbus was going on a mission to a non-existent location based on phony science, with absolutely no convincing reason for making his journey. And it still lead to world-changing results. But let's dismiss things that actually have arguments to support them.
"No convincing reason" isn't right. Europe needed a sea route to Asia to facilitate trade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christo...Quest_for_Asia

Also his intended destination was real and the science for a round Earth was not phony.
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Old July 29 2013, 09:05 AM   #32
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Mission to Mars

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Also his intended destination was real and the science for a round Earth was not phony.
I think later centuries owe a huge apology to the poor people of the 15th century for shamelessly replacing them with straw men. They never claimed the Earth was flat. That's just silly. It was Mr. Columbus who ignored the scientific knowledge about the Earth's roundness to support his mission, not those who detracted his flawed ideas about the location of Asia which did not exist where he was headed. Something everyone knew, except Columbus.

That's what your own link says:
Washington Irving's 1828 biography of Columbus popularized the idea that Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because many Catholic theologians insisted that the Earth was flat. In fact, most educated Westerners had understood that the Earth was spherical at least since the time of Aristotle, who lived in the 4th century BC and whose works were widely studied and revered in Medieval Europe. [...] In Columbus's time, the techniques of celestial navigation, which use the position of the sun and the stars in the sky, together with the understanding that the Earth is a sphere, had long been in use by astronomers and were beginning to be implemented by mariners.

Where Columbus did differ from the view accepted by scholars in his day was in his estimate of the westward distance from Europe to Asia. Columbus's ideas in this regard were based on three factors: his low estimate of the size of the Earth, his high estimate of the size of the Eurasian landmass, and his belief that Japan and other inhabited islands lay far to the east of the coast of China. In all three of these issues Columbus was both wrong and at odds with the scholarly consensus of his day.

He got lucky that he found the Americas there. But if the Pacific and the Atlantic had switched places, he would have found only disappointment.
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Old July 29 2013, 12:09 PM   #33
Deckerd
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Re: Mission to Mars

The problem with Earth exploration analogies is that they are completely irrelevant to space exploration.
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Old July 29 2013, 12:51 PM   #34
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Re: Mission to Mars

Deckerd wrote: View Post
The problem with Earth exploration analogies is that they are completely irrelevant to space exploration.
This affirmation is the very definition of an unsupported dictum.
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Old July 29 2013, 01:24 PM   #35
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Re: Mission to Mars

I disagree. Wherever humans go on Earth there are a few constants which never vary and are sort of important. Like gravity and y'know a breathable atmosphere, and unless they're very unlucky a means of obtaining water and food.

None of those constants are there as soon as you leave the planet. So if you break down you're stuffed. If you run out of food or water or heating or air, you're stuffed. If your life support fails on Mars you're stuffed. If you get a serious illness which requires specialist treatment you're stuffed. And so on. You can build as much redundancy as you like into a life support system on a hostile planet but all it takes is one fire and you're toast because you can't run outside in your pyjamas.
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Old July 29 2013, 01:36 PM   #36
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Mission to Mars

And yet we are already more successful in surviving in space than people were at sea in Columbus times. Seems like the irrelevance could easily expire after a technological breakthrough or two.
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Old July 29 2013, 01:59 PM   #37
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Mission to Mars

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I disagree. Wherever humans go on Earth there are a few constants which never vary and are sort of important. Like gravity and y'know a breathable atmosphere, and unless they're very unlucky a means of obtaining water and food.

None of those constants are there as soon as you leave the planet. So if you break down you're stuffed. If you run out of food or water or heating or air, you're stuffed. If your life support fails on Mars you're stuffed. If you get a serious illness which requires specialist treatment you're stuffed. And so on. You can build as much redundancy as you like into a life support system on a hostile planet but all it takes is one fire and you're toast because you can't run outside in your pyjamas.
On earth, if you must go through a winter without provisions, you're stuffed. If your encounter meteorological turbulences without being prepared, you're stuffed. And so on.
Humans survive on earth as well as we do because of our technology - starting from fire, clothing, agriculture, etc. Without it - for example, tell me, how well do you think Las Vegas' citizens would fare?
And we do have the technology to survive in space, as well. Quite safely, too - despite your alarmism.

Any other arguments?
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Old July 29 2013, 02:19 PM   #38
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Re: Mission to Mars

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
technology ... Without it - for example, tell me, how well do you think Las Vegas' citizens would fare?
Off topic, but one of things that made me roll my eyes about the original V series was that the aliens were stealing water from Los Angeles... which was a desert before humans irrigated it, and then built a huge city on top of a major fault line. "Danger" is our middle name.
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Old July 30 2013, 02:51 PM   #39
Deckerd
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Re: Mission to Mars

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
I disagree. Wherever humans go on Earth there are a few constants which never vary and are sort of important. Like gravity and y'know a breathable atmosphere, and unless they're very unlucky a means of obtaining water and food.

None of those constants are there as soon as you leave the planet. So if you break down you're stuffed. If you run out of food or water or heating or air, you're stuffed. If your life support fails on Mars you're stuffed. If you get a serious illness which requires specialist treatment you're stuffed. And so on. You can build as much redundancy as you like into a life support system on a hostile planet but all it takes is one fire and you're toast because you can't run outside in your pyjamas.
On earth, if you must go through a winter without provisions, you're stuffed. If your encounter meteorological turbulences without being prepared, you're stuffed. And so on.
Humans survive on earth as well as we do because of our technology - starting from fire, clothing, agriculture, etc. Without it - for example, tell me, how well do you think Las Vegas' citizens would fare?
And we do have the technology to survive in space, as well. Quite safely, too - despite your alarmism.

Any other arguments?
Those aren't arguments. The fact that we evolved here means we are perfectly capable of surviving without technology. That we choose to use technology is irrelevant.
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Old July 30 2013, 03:59 PM   #40
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Re: Mission to Mars

Humans evolved in warm/etc Africa.
We are NOT able to survive without technology in most habitats we occupy on Earth.
We would not be able to survive anywhere in our numbers without technology.
I notice you haven't answered my question about Las Vegas.

That we can survive quite well by using technology in inhospitable habitats - and have done so for thousands of years - is eminently relevant when talking about colonising a new habitat - space.
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Old July 30 2013, 04:04 PM   #41
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Re: Mission to Mars

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
I disagree. Wherever humans go on Earth there are a few constants which never vary and are sort of important. Like gravity and y'know a breathable atmosphere, and unless they're very unlucky a means of obtaining water and food.

None of those constants are there as soon as you leave the planet. So if you break down you're stuffed. If you run out of food or water or heating or air, you're stuffed. If your life support fails on Mars you're stuffed. If you get a serious illness which requires specialist treatment you're stuffed. And so on. You can build as much redundancy as you like into a life support system on a hostile planet but all it takes is one fire and you're toast because you can't run outside in your pyjamas.
On earth, if you must go through a winter without provisions, you're stuffed. If your encounter meteorological turbulences without being prepared, you're stuffed. And so on.
Humans survive on earth as well as we do because of our technology - starting from fire, clothing, agriculture, etc. Without it - for example, tell me, how well do you think Las Vegas' citizens would fare?
And we do have the technology to survive in space, as well. Quite safely, too - despite your alarmism.

Any other arguments?
Those aren't arguments. The fact that we evolved here means we are perfectly capable of surviving without technology. That we choose to use technology is irrelevant.
True. The human body isn't made for space. A human needs to take his environment with him in order to survive in space. For interstellar travel, there MUST be gravity, for example. People will die without it in the long run.
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Old July 30 2013, 05:07 PM   #42
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Mission to Mars

Still going on with unsupported dictums - and already refuted arguments -, I see, JarodRussell.
As opposed to having the integrity to admit you were proven wrong in this thread - by myself and other posters.
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Old July 30 2013, 06:26 PM   #43
Deckerd
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Re: Mission to Mars

Just because you don't like the bald truth doesn't make it an "unsupported dictum" whatever that's supposed to mean. A human being can survive on Earth except in the most extreme conditiions without any technology. A human being cannot do that in any other known environment in the solar system. I only said that comparing Earth exploration with space exploration was not valid, not that space exploration is not possible.
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Old July 30 2013, 06:33 PM   #44
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Mission to Mars

Just because you call some affirmation 'bald truth' doesn't make it true, Deckerd.
Especially considering your arguments were proved as unsupported.
What I just said to JarodRussell applies to you too.
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Old July 30 2013, 07:44 PM   #45
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Re: Mission to Mars

publiusr wrote: View Post
This is why I support SLS. Even the Musk/Tito flyby mission will be cramped, not unlike the plan the Russians have to go to the Moon:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ptk_2013.html#june


Different versions:

NEP, the Bekuo
http://nickd.freehostia.com/OrbiterVault/bekuo.html

NTR
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2004/PB/PBM-mcguire.html

I'm a Nuclear Thermal guy myself--I like that better, and dates back farther
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...rs-study-1961/

The war is on: NEP vs NTR
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1896/1

Sad to see little camps fight.

civilian vs military
public vs private
winged vs ballistic
solid vs liquid
pressure-fed vs pump-fed
manned vs robotic
solar vs nuclear
NTR vs NEP
Moon vs Mars

Can't we all just get along?
In any large camp like the supporters of space exploration, you will always have factions that don't agree on what should happen next. I could see three Elon Musk types, one of them funds the creation of a manned, scientific Moon base, another funds a permanent settlement on Mars, and a third funds a robotic asteroid mining operation. They might not "get along" as in agreeing about what should be done, but they acknowledge that space is big enough for multiple players and different priorities.
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