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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 26 2013, 05:58 PM   #46
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
captainkirk wrote: View Post
Has anyone been able to figure out why Marcus needed Khan to tell him how to build a more advanced ship. I don't see how Khan could have learned enough about 23rd century technology to build the Vengeance and do it all in one year. What makes more sense to me is that when Nero's drill fell into the sea, it had a crew on board like when he attacked Vulcan, and that Starfleet captured them and used their knowledge to build the Vengeance. After all, they probably would have been engineers.
I had just assumed that Marcus used Khan's knowledge and understanding of warfare itself somehow to make the ship more dangerous.
That's exactly it. Khan applied current-day methods of warfare (which, like the art of rebooting and resetting a malfunctioning computer in TNG's "Contagion", appear to be lost arts) to 23rd century technology.
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Old July 26 2013, 06:48 PM   #47
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

That shouldn't work too well. After all, most lessons of war from the past are outdated ones today, and would lead to a humiliating defeat if applied.

ST2:TWoK showed that Khan was no good at space warfare anyway... Or was that just because he had forgotten most of what he knew during the time he ate Ceti eels and an occasional follower, sandblasted his face and chest with the morning wind to stay fresh, and plotted revenge?

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Old July 26 2013, 08:25 PM   #48
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Although be fair, TWOK isn't exactly the poster child for "smart" commanders...it makes me wonder if there was something in the water on both Reliant and Enterprise.
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Old July 26 2013, 08:43 PM   #49
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote: View Post
That shouldn't work too well. After all, most lessons of war from the past are outdated ones today, and would lead to a humiliating defeat if applied.

ST2:TWoK showed that Khan was no good at space warfare anyway... Or was that just because he had forgotten most of what he knew during the time he ate Ceti eels and an occasional follower, sandblasted his face and chest with the morning wind to stay fresh, and plotted revenge?
You're mostly right. Khan's knowledge of warfare should be worthless when it comes to upgrading Vengeance technologically, but that was the best my mind could come up with to fix that plothole about Khan helping them design the ship.

This just highlights another misstep the writers took in building the reboot universe.
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Old July 26 2013, 08:45 PM   #50
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

It's a Federation used to peace. Think of it as the US after the Cold War, we were used to no enemy, then 9/11 happened. We had an enemy and our ideals of invincibility were crushed.

Khan represents the loss of peace.
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Old July 26 2013, 09:19 PM   #51
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote: View Post
That shouldn't work too well. After all, most lessons of war from the past are outdated ones today, and would lead to a humiliating defeat if applied.
Yet we're talking about the Trek universe, which never had drone technology or long range missiles until Khan brought them back. Where rebooting a computer and reinstalling from backups was something that was so unknown to Starfleet (although not super genius Noonien Soong) in "Contagion" that it cost the lives of the entire Yamato crew and would have done the same to the compliment of the Enterprise and Romulan Warbird as well. Where Pulaski ordering a splint be put on a patient was met with shock.

These people are amazingly advanced in many ways, but they've shockingly degenerated in others. More due to writers with limited understanding of technology than by design, but it's fascinating nonetheless.
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
This just highlights another misstep the writers took in building the reboot universe.
Surely it highlights the incredibly limited set of weaponry available in Star Trek until the reboot? Long range photon torpedoes would have been rather useful in the Dominion War. As would mile long Starfleet uberships.
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Old July 27 2013, 07:03 AM   #52
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

In the Countdown comic (I know, it's not 100% canon) there was a crew on the drill who operated it.
It hadn't occurred to me that it could have been Khan's ego. Perhaps, since this is the Dreadnought-class and not the Vengeance-class, there was a prototype that failed (being tested in the Laurentian system?) and Khan helped get it working and then just took the credit for designing it.
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Old July 27 2013, 05:33 PM   #53
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

I see it less as Khan proofing the Vengeance, as training her crew every cruel, underhanded, malicious lesson he could to make them shake off 200-300 years of pacifism and take on the mentality they needed to wage a war and win it.

Essentially, telling them to put more guns on it, raise the yields, teach them basic tactical ideas.

I don't know if "teaching them to be meaner" really makes more sense, but it doesn't need to, obviously whatever he taught them worked. The Vengeance turned 20% of the Enterprise into confetti in 3 seconds.
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Old July 28 2013, 01:28 AM   #54
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

I got the feeling that Marcus's idea behind Khan was to get a different POV on the whole ship and its technologies. Because Khan was from a different time and mindset, he could see applications of existing technology that others would miss or ask questions that would get people to reconsider their previous notions of how things should work.
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Old July 28 2013, 04:57 PM   #55
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I don't know if "teaching them to be meaner" really makes more sense, but it doesn't need to, obviously whatever he taught them worked.
It looks as if he taught them "bigger is better" and "win through superior firepower".

But did they really need Khan to teach them those things?

They already learned them from Nero.
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Old July 28 2013, 07:56 PM   #56
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I don't know if "teaching them to be meaner" really makes more sense, but it doesn't need to, obviously whatever he taught them worked.
It looks as if he taught them "bigger is better" and "win through superior firepower".

But did they really need Khan to teach them those things?

They already learned them from Nero.
Nero had to have his whole ship and crew sucked into a black hole to even put a crack in the Enterprise. He had them jumping at their own shadows but without Red Matter he wasn't up to much.

The Enterprise was a bug on a windscreen compared to the Vengeance, let loose, that ship would have put the Narada to shame within a few weeks.
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Old July 28 2013, 10:06 PM   #57
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Yet we're talking about the Trek universe, which never had drone technology or long range missiles until Khan brought them back.
There were plenty of long range missiles and drones in Trek before the premiere of ST:ID. True, in in-universe terms, those didn't exactly precede the events of ST:ID, but that's hardly an issue, since very little of what we saw in-universe preceded ST:ID/TOS anyway.

Nobody claimed that interstellar missiles would be new when they were mentioned or shown in DS9 and VOY, or that intelligence-gathering drones would be when mentioned in TNG, or that assassination drones would be when shown in DS9 and ST:INS. Most of us didn't assume that transporters or warp drives would be an all-new technology in the 2260s just because TOS was the first show to feature them - so we had better things to complain about when ENT expanded the Trek universe... Etc.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Where rebooting a computer and reinstalling from backups was something that was so unknown to Starfleet (although not super genius Noonien Soong) in "Contagion" that it cost the lives of the entire Yamato crew and would have done the same to the compliment of the Enterprise and Romulan Warbird as well.
It doesn't strike me as remotely realistic that something as complex as a starship could be shut down and rebooted at all. It's like shutting down an aircraft in mid-flight, opening all welding seams, redoing them better, and thinking that this solves the problem of seam fatigue that was threatening to down the plane...

What works with tabletop toys isn't usually applicable in the real world. That our heroes didn't think of rebooting at first is the realistic part. That it worked is the unwelcome fantasy element.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Where Pulaski ordering a splint be put on a patient was met with shock.
Yes, there's something really wrong about that. But I doubt Khan would be of any help there.

captainkirk wrote: View Post
Perhaps, since this is the Dreadnought-class and not the Vengeance-class, there was a prototype that failed
Or then "dreadnought-class" doesn't specify class name but merely ship type - the way the Arleigh Burke class ships today are destroyer-class vessels. After all, "dreadnought-class" is an existing definition of ship type today, theoretically applying to all the major battleships used in the World Wars...

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I see it less as Khan proofing the Vengeance, as training her crew
...But what crew would that be? Marcus seemed to fly out to meet/kill Kirk with a crew of mercenaries; it wouldn't help protect the Federation much if Khan only educated such less than patriotic groups. We never learned that he would have worked with regular Starfleet personnel. Indeed, he didn't even seem to have clearances to blow up the Section 31 workshop in London by himself, but needed to bribe/blackmail a Starfleet officer to do that.

Timo Saloniemi

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Old July 29 2013, 12:01 AM   #58
Set Harth
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
without Red Matter he wasn't up to much.
Just destroying a 47-ship Klingon armada, all the other ships sent to Vulcan, etc.

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
The Enterprise was a bug on a windscreen compared to the Vengeance
That sounds more like the Narada.
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Old July 29 2013, 12:25 AM   #59
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
without Red Matter he wasn't up to much.
Just destroying a 47-ship Klingon armada, all the other ships sent to Vulcan, etc.

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
The Enterprise was a bug on a windscreen compared to the Vengeance
That sounds more like the Narada.
The same Narada, who's best shot only took the ships shields down to 32% and made one point of dmaage on the neck that wasn't even visible after that.

Compared to the Vengeance's phasers, contemporary to the Enterprise's, that vapourised sections of her instantly and devastatingly?
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Old July 29 2013, 01:45 AM   #60
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
without Red Matter he wasn't up to much.
Just destroying a 47-ship Klingon armada, all the other ships sent to Vulcan, etc.

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
The Enterprise was a bug on a windscreen compared to the Vengeance
That sounds more like the Narada.
The same Narada, who's best shot only took the ships shields down to 32% and made one point of dmaage on the neck that wasn't even visible after that.

Compared to the Vengeance's phasers, contemporary to the Enterprise's, that vapourised sections of her instantly and devastatingly?
Thinking back on it, did we actually get any shots of the ship where the damage would be on display after she was hit? Like every hero shot of the ship from there on out seemed to be either from the front, to starboard, or aft. It was like they went out of their way to avoid showing the port side or something.
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