RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,705
Posts: 5,431,753
Members: 24,834
Currently online: 430
Newest member: kamkaran


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 25 2013, 07:38 PM   #631
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Venardhi wrote: View Post
I imagine there are other SHIELD teams as well as rival agencies. Hydra, perhaps, could make for a good recurring villain.
Given that IM3 introduced A.I.M., I'm hoping it will be a recurring presence in future productions and eventually have its ties to HYDRA revealed. Although that would probably best be done in Cap 3 as a way of bringing the Red Skull back.

I really hope they work out a way to have Mutants at some point, as that is a pretty big part of the Marvel Universe to have to leave out.
Except it's usually off on its own, and even in the MU it can be hard to reconcile with the rest of what's going on. In X-Men comics and TV shows, the general public is prejudiced against anyone with superpowers, but in other superhero shows in the same universe, you never see those attitudes toward superpowered beings, except during crossovers with the X-Men. Maybe it's best to have the Fox X-Men series existing in a separate reality from the MCU.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 08:07 PM   #632
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Yeah, I'm a fan of keeping the X-Men separate. Combining universes muddies the messages of the X-Men universe rather than strengthens either. Sure it's nice to see superheroes with each other, but X-Men is deeper than just that and combining them severely weakens their stories.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 10:03 PM   #633
Venardhi
Vice Admiral
 
Venardhi's Avatar
 
Location: Constant transit
Send a message via AIM to Venardhi Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Venardhi
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Since when are bigots logical? it isn't like they would have nice things to say about all the non-mutant heroes anyways. Thor is a foreigner who claims to be a god. Hulk occasionally destroys city blocks. Every time any of them have a fight they risk destroying neighborhoods.

The fear of the Mutants comes from the fact that anyone's child might be one, that they're replacing humanity. That they are superior and might one day realize it. And, rightfully so, some teenager who can't keep his boner down in class might one day wake up with lasers shooting out of his eyes, or mutate into a living bomb or a plague, or rip apart reality around him. Combine that with how many mutants are freakish looking and DON'T have powers, and you have a lot of easy targets and a recipe for people putting the blame on those freaks out there, rather than those nice Avenger gentlemen.

The comics don't always portray it well, but comics do a lot of things badly.

Plus, it gives them another option for super-powered threats other than "mad scientist" and "military experiment", which would be handy assuming they aren't going to bring in the Skrulls or other Asgardians any time soon. Spider-Man's rogues gallery makes for some pretty formulaic movies because of this.
__________________
"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.
Venardhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 11:02 PM   #634
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

I think the point that illustrates my problem with crossovers the best was in DOFP where they say "not only were mutants killed, but other superheroes as well" and shows a picture including Captain America. The whole thing about mutants being discriminated against translates awkwardly when the hero of America against the Nazis is included in as well.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 11:34 PM   #635
Venardhi
Vice Admiral
 
Venardhi's Avatar
 
Location: Constant transit
Send a message via AIM to Venardhi Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Venardhi
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Some young thug with a gun who doesn't know his history gets caught up in the anti-Mutant movement and finds himself with an opportunity to kill a super-powered sort. Maybe he saw Captain America on TV trying to talk some sense into people about the rights of Mutants, maybe Cap was standing guard at a Mutant safehouse while a mob gathered outside, whatever. Last year we had a dude kill some Sikhs because apparently they were brown enough to probably be Muslim and therefore probably terrorists. I don't see that such things as terribly unlikely in a world where Cap's origins probably aren't common knowledge.
__________________
"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.
Venardhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 11:55 PM   #636
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I think the point that illustrates my problem with crossovers the best was in DOFP where they say "not only were mutants killed, but other superheroes as well" and shows a picture including Captain America. The whole thing about mutants being discriminated against translates awkwardly when the hero of America against the Nazis is included in as well.
The really odd thing about DOFP in the comics is that most of the Marvel heroes were killed by the Sentinels except the X-Men....
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 11:58 PM   #637
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Venardhi wrote: View Post
Since when are bigots logical? it isn't like they would have nice things to say about all the non-mutant heroes anyways.
But sometimes it's about more than that -- it's a more basic matter of universe inconsistency, especially where screen adaptations are concerned. I recently rewatched all three X-Men animated series on Netflix, along with the series that two of them nominally shared continuity with; the '90s FOX X-Men had a couple of crossover appearances in the contemporaneous Spider-Man series, and Wolverine and the X-Men was nominally in continuity with The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. But they were awkward fits. In many episodes of the original X-Men series, anyone who displayed superpowers was automatically assumed by spectators to be a mutant. For instance, when Apocalypse made his first public appearance, people yelled that a mutant was attacking. But in Spider-Man, people were displaying superpowers all the time, but the only time mutants were ever mentioned was in the X-Men crossover. And WatXM was set in a continuity where there was this fascistic government agency called the Mutant Response Division imposing a nationwide crackdown on mutants, but aside from a throwaway reference to the "Mardies" in one A:EMH episode, that pervasive witch-hunt mentality was completely missing.

Now, sure, in both cases that's because the X-Men shows came first and weren't designed to accommodate the other shows that were added to their continuities later. What you're proposing is the other way around, adding mutants to a universe about other Marvel characters. And sure, that could work, up to a point. But I think the reason I'm resistant to that is that I think the X-Men story works better if the whole mutant-rights issue is in a distinct reality, if you don't have to try to do a handwave to reconcile it with other superheroes' existence.

So sure, you could have mutants in Agents of SHIELD to some extent, but it would have to be handled rather differently than it's handled in the X-Men movies. Mutants would have to be something that's still secret, since the world in the MCU is being portrayed as just recently catching on to the existence of superbeings. So they couldn't be as pervasive in society, they wouldn't be subject to widespread or institutionalized persecution, etc. It would be so different from the usual X-Men saga that it's questionable what the benefit would be. (The second animated series, X-Men Evolution, kept mutants secret from the world until a bit over halfway through its run, and it didn't really get interesting until they were outed and the show could start dealing with the themes of intolerance and persecution.)


The fear of the Mutants comes from the fact that anyone's child might be one, that they're replacing humanity. That they are superior and might one day realize it.
Yeah, but by the same token, anyone could come into possession of a piece of advanced weapons technology, or be exposed to exotic radiation and change into a superpowered being, or find a magical or alien artifact, or undergo an experimental medical procedure, or train in a far-off land to master mystical forces, or whatever. There are many ways for "normal" people to get superpowers, which kind of negates the whole "mutants are superior" fear. It doesn't make much sense to fear that normal people will be supplanted by mutants who can shoot beams out of their eyes or exert superstrength or mentally transform reality when Iron Man can shoot beams out of his hands, the Thing can exert superstrength, and Dr. Strange can magically transform reality. Both subspecies come out about evenly matched. So that fear of mutants supplanting us, except in the long term by a demographic shift over generations, makes more sense in a continuity without other superbeings.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 12:22 AM   #638
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

Yeah at this point it would definitely be hard to reconcile the X-Men movie universe with the Avengers movie universe. Since in the X-Men world, the public has been aware and dealing with super-powered beings for quite a long while-- and yet somehow when the Avengers come along there's nary a mention or hint of this at all.


(Although there'd still be room for Spider-Man, I think, which is the only crossover I'd really like to see with Avengers.)
davejames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 12:25 AM   #639
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

I'm probably in the vast minority in these parts, but I'd just as soon Sony and Fox keep the rights to their Marvel characters. I like the MCU just fine with its focus on Avengers-related characters...that's a big, diverse sandbox, and throwing everything in there with them would just be overextending things.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 12:40 AM   #640
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I'm probably in the vast minority in these parts, but I'd just as soon Sony and Fox keep the rights to their Marvel characters.
Oh, I agree. As I've said before, a given studio can only make so many movies per year if they want those movies to be any good. Marvel Studios has committed to a pace of two movies per year. So if they held all the rights, all we'd get is two movies per year. But with Fox and Sony doing their own Marvel things, we can get three, four, maybe more Marvel movies per year, and there's a better chance they'll be good.

Fox's X-universe is large and rich enough to stand on its own quite nicely. While it's had its ups and downs, I think it's safe to say it's matured into an enduring franchise, and it rivals the MCU in size and scope (MCU has 7 released films so far, and the X-Men series releases its 6th this week).

As for Sony, though, I'd like them to keep Spider-Man so that we can have more movies per year, but it'd be nice if they could coordinate with Marvel Studios and at least implicitly have the films in the same continuity, like they were going to do by having Oscorp Tower appear in The Avengers' Manhattan skyline. What I'd ideally like is for Marvel to license the Daredevil rights to Sony or work out some kind of cooperative deal so that Spidey, DD, and their shared characters (such as Kingpin and Ben Urich) could share a joint continuity.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 01:10 AM   #641
Fist McStrongpunch
Rear Admiral
 
Fist McStrongpunch's Avatar
 
Location: Milwaukeeish
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

davejames wrote: View Post
(Although there'd still be room for Spider-Man, I think, which is the only crossover I'd really like to see with Avengers.)
I'd prefer the Raimi stuff over ASM though, simply because of how crazy well the Green Goblin's origin fits in just before Iron Man 2, what with the corporations competing to create robot suits, and the off-brand super-soldier serum tying in well to Cap and Abomination.
__________________
You all laugh when I look at boxes and talk about robot costumes. Robots, my friends, are no laughing matter.
Fist McStrongpunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 01:42 AM   #642
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

^^I'm fine with Spidey remaining separate, too. He doesn't add anything to the Avengers setting and vice versa. Spidey/DD would be nice, but does anyone have any plans for DD?

Spidey/FF would be nice, too...classically, they've had more of a history than Spidey and the Avengers...but I won't lose sleep over it not happening.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 01:48 AM   #643
Out Of My Vulcan Mind
Vice Admiral
 
Out Of My Vulcan Mind's Avatar
 
Location: Wherever you go, there you are.
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Spidey/DD would be nice, but does anyone have any plans for DD?
Fox's option on the DD rights ended and they reverted to Marvel. Nothing has been announced yet, but I'm sure Marvel will do something new with DD in the next few years.
__________________
"I'll see you in another life, brother."
Out Of My Vulcan Mind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 02:26 AM   #644
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

davejames wrote: View Post
(Although there'd still be room for Spider-Man, I think, which is the only crossover I'd really like to see with Avengers.)
Yeah, there's no problem inherent with Spiderman and the Avengers existing (aside from Spiderman's great responsibility would probably diminish if there were lots of others available to do the same job). I tend to go with three camps: more "down to earth" heroes like Spiderman and Daredevil, more "larger than life" heroes in the Avengers, and the X-Men. Fantastic Four would probably be in the middle category too (what with fighting planet-eating aliens and all that), although I don't like two competing teams wondering around. At least keeping the Fantastic Four away from Spiderman and Daredevil will help prevent New York City from having too many superheroes, though.

I enjoyed the Spiderman crossover with the X-Men in the 90s cartoon. It worked for the episode, but it didn't work if you start to think about how common mutants are in the mutant universe. Christopher more or less explained why. It only works if he entered a bubble where the people he met only existed so Spiderman could meet them.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 02:48 AM   #645
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D to ABC!

^Or if it's a slightly alternate universe where anti-mutant hysteria isn't so widespread. (Although the crossovers went both ways; there was a late X-Men episode wherein a news van had the J3 Communications logo from Spider-Man.)

Then again, maybe it's just that Spidey mostly operates in New York City proper, which is a very cosmopolitan city and might be more tolerant of mutants, whereas X-Men episodes were often set in other parts of the world. Although they did do a lot that was apparently set in Manhattan or thereabouts, so that doesn't entirely work.

As for Wolverine&tXM/Avengers:EMH, there's apparently some time that passes between them, so maybe there were intervening events that eased anti-mutant tensions; maybe the X-Men preventing the rise of Apocalypse (as seen in the cliffhanger ending of the first and only season) led to improved public opinion of mutants. Although I'm led to wonder where the rest of the X-Men were in the later EMH episodes that Wolverine appeared in. It seems odd that none of them participated in the series finale when just about every other major hero was involved.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
joss whedon, shield

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.