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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old July 24 2013, 06:18 AM   #1
Xerxes1979
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Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Jarok appears to be a middle aged Romulan with no grey hair. He also apparently has a young child.

If the Norkan attack happened prior to the Romulan period of isolation how old is Jarok? If it happen in recent history why did the Federation not directly respond or interact with Romulan Star Empire?

Norkan(Pi Hydrae) is a real star in the constellation of Hydra some 100 light years from Earth. 100 LY is fairly close to the Federation core is it not? One could not just ignore it especially if thousands of deaths were involved.
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Old July 24 2013, 11:50 AM   #2
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
Jarok appears to be a middle aged Romulan with no grey hair. He also apparently has a young child.
He does have grey hair.

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Old July 24 2013, 01:17 PM   #3
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

The problem with the Romulan "isolationism" established in "The Neutral Zone" was that it was pretty much contradicted later. Unless we really want to believe that the Norkan "campaign" took place 70+ years before the episode, which doesn't really seem to be the episode's intention.
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Old July 24 2013, 02:22 PM   #4
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

When Admiral Haden tells Picard that Jarok has been identified as the Norkan outposts bad guy, it's quite possible to see this as him saying that a long-sought-after, notorious baddie from the depths of history has now been handed over to Picard. Say, a Nazi war criminal has surfaced today from, say, Argentine, where he has been doing valuable military or political work until recently, but is now ready to come clean and help solve Argentine war crimes in turn.

The other obvious possibility that still preserves the seven decades of silence is that Admiral Jarok commanded the forces in the massacres just a few months before the episode... The Romulans have been quite active in intervening episodes, so the "silence" is clearly over by now.

From the point of view of the Romulan himself, seventy years is not a particularly long time. From the point of view of our heroes, it is a short time only if the Norkan thing was a major historical event; it would not be remembered if it were akin to the Setlik III raid. But it does sound as if it were a major thing, from both sides of the game: Haden and Picard hotly accuse Jarok of complicity, while Jarok says it was a whole "campaign" that may have been viewed as heroic by the Star Empire.

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Old July 24 2013, 10:28 PM   #5
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Though it's never been officially established we have every reason to believe Romulans age like Vulcans.
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Old July 24 2013, 10:36 PM   #6
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Though it's never been officially established we have every reason to believe Romulans age like Vulcans.
Senator Pardek was established as being long lived in Unification.

SAREK He is a Romulan Senator. Spock has maintained a relationship with him over the years... I don't know where they met. The Khitomer Conference, I'd imagine.
PICARD Pardek represented Romulus?
SAREK Yes... yes I'm quite sure he did...
DATA He has been in public service since he was a young man... a senator for nine decades. He is considered a "man of the people... " He has sponsored many reforms. Reportedly, he is considered by the Romulan leadership to be something of a radical because he has been an advocate for peace throughout his career.
So yeah, Jarok's military career could've easily spanned a century. It was never specified who the Norkan campaigns/massacres where against. Could've easily been the Klingons, who it was established were at the very least were skirmishing regularly with the Romulans over that time period(Khitomer/Narendra 3) or it could've been random aliens or a colonial revolt.
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Old July 25 2013, 02:32 AM   #7
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Timo wrote: View Post
The other obvious possibility that still preserves the seven decades of silence is that Admiral Jarok commanded the forces in the massacres just a few months before the episode... The Romulans have been quite active in intervening episodes, so the "silence" is clearly over by now.

Timo Saloniemi
I am willing to entertain that idea. However The Neutral Zone happened at the very end of season one and The Defector states Jarok was reassigned six months or more prior to the episode. If the Norkan campaign happened it would have had to have been in season two.
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Old July 25 2013, 02:43 AM   #8
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Tosk wrote: View Post
Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
Jarok appears to be a middle aged Romulan with no grey hair. He also apparently has a young child.
He does have grey hair.

I admit my error. Strange since I recently watched the Blu-ray. If this typical of Romulan/Vulcan age related greying, he may be older than Sarek was in Journey to Babel.
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Old July 25 2013, 06:23 AM   #9
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

It's fully possible that the Isolation wasn't at complete as it's assumed and there was some occasional conflict and interactions during that time but not much normal diplomacy during the period.
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Old July 25 2013, 03:51 PM   #10
Timo
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

That "The Neutral Zone" would establish total Romulan silence is somewhat debatable, no matter what the original writer's intent.

Riker: "There's been no direct contact with the Romulans since the Tomed incident."
What is direct contact? Handshakes or official letters? Disruptor hits or sexual intercourse? When was the Tomed incident? Two weeks ago?

Picard: "The question is, why now? What's their objective? For fifty years there's barely a whisper out of them, and now for no apparent reason they seem to be back with a roar."
This answers neither of the questions, at least not in an understandable, unambiguous way. Does "barely a whisper" mean occasional direct contacts or no direct contacts at all? Does "back with a roar" define direct contact for us? Picard essentially just says that the Romulans haven't attacked a large number of UFP outposts for fifty years... That doesn't exclude diplomatic negotiations, an occasional battle between Romulan and Federation ships, a lone outpost raided, etc.

Riker: "Everything we know about them is based on rumor or conjecture."
Is this in reference to the fifty years of barely a whisper, or to the no direct contact since Tomed, or both? It could be neither, since there has obviously been more contact before Tomed and/or before those fifty years, and even that hasn't provided out heroes with anything concrete! It's not dependent on direct contact or lack thereof, then, that Romulans are difficult to understand. Apparently, rumor and conjecture is all that "Balance of Terror", "The Deadly Years", "The Enterprise Incident" and ST6:TUC yielded, too.

Riker:" This first encounter, coming so suddenly after all this time. We have to assume it's a setup."
The apparent attacks against the outposts are what Riker considers "this first encounter", so there has been a shortage of such things lately. And "all this time" makes it sound the shortage has been more like fifty years than two months. But this "first" encounter clearly isn't the first time Starfleet and Romulan ships have met in space, or the first time Romulans have attacked UFP outposts, or the first time a Fed will have spoken with a Romulan. It's merely a "first after all this time", which is quite uninformative.

In the end, the original two questions remain unanswered. Perhaps the Tomed incident was indeed just a few months earlier (possibly in "Angel One"?), and there has been plenty of "direct contact" before it - but it still amounts to "barely a whisper". Certainly we never hear the word "isolation" used, and the only thing we know hasn't happened recently with Romulans is open attacks against UFP assets.

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Old July 25 2013, 05:39 PM   #11
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Heck, "Yesterday's Enterprise" has Yar mention Romulan Warship designs from the 2340s. How would they have known what their ships were like then if there was no contact.
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Old July 25 2013, 05:52 PM   #12
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Well that was a alternate universe where perhaps more things were different.
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Old July 25 2013, 11:06 PM   #13
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Anwar wrote: View Post
Heck, "Yesterday's Enterprise" has Yar mention Romulan Warship designs from the 2340s. How would they have known what their ships were like then if there was no contact.
I think the mentions about the Romulans in TNG reference the attack on Khitomer and Narendra III. Both are Klingon colony worlds. Might the Romulan isolation been only technical? As in, they did not have any direct confrontations with the Federation so they were technically isolated as far as the Federation was concerned? Or am I incorrect? It wouldn't be the first time the writers on a Star Trek series retconned something from their own series to make a story work.
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Old July 26 2013, 04:58 PM   #14
Timo
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Certainly there was creative interpreting of the earlier dialogue whenever a new "Romulan episode" was coined. And as pointed out above, it was easy going for everybody involved, because the wording was always fuzzy at best. (In that sense, one of the early claims about Romulans definitely stands: "All we know is based on rumor and conjecture"!)

To recap, there is no mention of any "isolation" in the episodes - only of lack of direct contact, whatever that means. And we don't even know how long this direct contact was lacking, save for it not having taken place after the Tomed incident, which in turn takes place at a canonically unknown time.

Heck, "Yesterday's Enterprise" has Yar mention Romulan Warship designs from the 2340s. How would they have known what their ships were like then if there was no contact.
By studying the records after there again was contact, I'd guess. The same as with certain Soviet technologies.

Indeed, the very subject of this thread, Admiral Jarok, was subject to some records that Starfleet had. But records can and will cover times and events outside the time when the records themselves were written. Them mentioning the Norkan campaign does not mean the campaign took place within the time period when the records were written; it could well be data learned after "The Neutral Zone" but relating to much earlier events.

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Old July 26 2013, 10:09 PM   #15
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Re: Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

The problem with "The Neutral Zone's" take that "we haven't heard a peep out of the Romulans except for rumor and conjecture" is that only a few episodes before, in "Heart of Glory," we learn all about the attack on Khitomer and Worf's rescue by the Intrepid. So Starfleet and the Klingons would have already known a bit more than just "rumors and conjecture" about the Romulans' activities before TNZ.
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