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Old July 24 2013, 09:11 PM   #16
Sector 7
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
To me the big difference is that planets join the Federation of their own free will. The Federation offers a prospective planet the benefits of belonging to the Federation but leaves it up to them to make the final decision. I am sure if a planet said "no thank you", the Federation would leave them alone. That is very different from an imperialist regime that coerces planets into joining them.
Well stated, Romulan_spy.
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
My opinion is that the Federation leverages the "no money" thing to their own advantage. Once they make first contact with a world, they give that world replicator technology, then sit back and watch. Eventually that world's economy collapses due to an overwhelming glut of free stuff. Finally the Federation steps in and says, "Don't worry, we'll take care of you if you join us!"

That's why no one ever leaves the Federation. They can't afford to.
I hope your entire statement was in jest, because otherwise it is rubbish.

The Federation observes worlds prior to first contact. This ensures a planet is ready to meet members of an outside world, such as the Federation.

I have yet to see an example of Federation tampering with a planet's economy, or any other coercion to join the Federation. The exception would be: slavery/denial of basic rights, which should rightfully exclude them from membership.
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Old July 24 2013, 09:15 PM   #17
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
"Annex" was probably a bad choice of word, yes. And nobody is accusing the UFP of forcing itself on others, at least not overtly.
At first I thought the word was too harsh, but then I looked it up.

Th Free Dictionary: an·nex (-nks, nks)1. To append or attach, especially to a larger or more significant thing.2. To incorporate (territory) into an existing political unit such as a country, state, county, or city.
3. To add or attach, as an attribute, condition, or consequence.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/annex1: to attach as a quality, consequence, or condition

2 archaic : to join together materially : unite

3: to add to something earlier, larger, or more important

4: to incorporate (a country or other territory) within the domain of a state

5: to obtain or take for oneself

I can see from Merriam-Webster's definition 5 that one could understand annex implies force. However, the definition allows for mutual agreement.
That's fair. I find that the word describes only one side of such a process, thus looks like what a greater power does to a lesser power. It doesn't reference what the lesser power is getting or how they fit in. On the other hand, the process is not one of UFP taking in territory, but of bringing in a new member. A new nation to the UN or the EU would not be described as being annexed.
Maybe that's because the UN or the EU really don't have much political power. They don't make laws (well, I'm not up on the EU).

Cities, on the other hand, annex or incorporate new sections all the time.
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Old July 24 2013, 09:45 PM   #18
C.E. Evans
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

The Federation is no different than any growing nation, except its boundaries are in outer space, and there's still quite a lot of room for growth out there. There is a case to be made than disputes and conflicts do break out when the Federation expands into territory already claimed by another nation. In such instances, they are resolved either by diplomats or by phasers.
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Old July 24 2013, 10:02 PM   #19
Hando
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Once a world develops the warp drive, their culture is bound to be corrupted by somebody. May as well be the Federation.
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Old July 24 2013, 10:16 PM   #20
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

The UFP's expansion is 100% voluntary.

Non-interference does not mean universal isolationism.
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Old July 24 2013, 10:19 PM   #21
R. Star
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.

Voluntary merging of sovereign nations takes years, if not decades. Look at say... the EU, it's been years now and still that rubber band union of nations is still barely functional and seems to be causing as many problems as it's solving. If anything it should be the militant powers like the Cardassians and Klingons who rapidly expand.
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Old July 24 2013, 10:23 PM   #22
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Cities, on the other hand, annex or incorporate new sections all the time.
Twentieth century cities really don't work as a model. Few have independent existences in most countries, and in the US, they are extraordinarily limited public corporations, not even mentioned in the Constitution.

And the EU does make laws: it has a parliament that meets in Brussels and Strasbourg.
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Old July 24 2013, 11:22 PM   #23
Roboturner913
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Right now, I am at a loss to find an example of cultural change that occurs specifically because of (for the lack of a better word) incorporating a new world.
The above conversation was just one of a whole bunch of times Quark grumbled about the corrupting hew-mon influence on his own society. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was not the only person in the 24th century that felt that way.
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Old July 24 2013, 11:32 PM   #24
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Right now, I am at a loss to find an example of cultural change that occurs specifically because of (for the lack of a better word) incorporating a new world.
The above conversation was just one of a whole bunch of times Quark grumbled about the corrupting hew-mon influence on his own society. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was not the only person in the 24th century that felt that way.
When did Cardassia and Ferenginar join the UFP?

Quark and Garrak complaining about Federation expansion is on par with a Frenchman and a German complaining about imperialism 100 years ago: they are competitors in this field, not unequals.
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Old July 24 2013, 11:55 PM   #25
MacLeod
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
I was watching the DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior". Garak and Quark have the following conversation:


Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.
Elim Garak: What is it?
Quark: A human drink. It's called root beer.
Elim Garak: [unwilling] Uh, I don't know...
Quark: Come on, aren't you just a little bit curious?
[Garak sighs, takes a sip and gags]
Quark: What do you think?
Elim Garak: It's *vile*!
Quark: I know. It's so bubbly, and cloying, and *happy*.
Elim Garak: Just like the Federation.
Quark: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to *like* it.
Elim Garak: It's insidious!
Quark: *Just* like the Federation.


Got me to thinking. We always hear about how the Federation's #1 rule is do not interfere in the development of other cultures. Now that only applies to those races without advanced spaceflight, but why? Who is to say that is the point where the Federation is now suddenly allowed to annex them?
Well for one the Federation doesn't annex populatd worlds, it

a.>generally avoids contact if they are pre-warp.
b.>Invites them to join if they are advanced enough
c.>If they are asked to leave, they leave.
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Old July 25 2013, 12:05 AM   #26
Silvercrest
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
That's why no one ever leaves the Federation. They can't afford to.
I hope your entire statement was in jest, because otherwise it is rubbish.
Hmm.

Allow me

to give

a hint

of my

intent.
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Old July 25 2013, 03:24 AM   #27
Shawnster
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

R. Star wrote: View Post
^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.
You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda
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Old July 25 2013, 03:48 AM   #28
The Old Mixer
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Roboturner913 wrote: View Post
Got me to thinking. We always hear about how the Federation's #1 rule is do not interfere in the development of other cultures. Now that only applies to those races without advanced spaceflight, but why? Who is to say that is the point where the Federation is now suddenly allowed to annex them?

Is it not possible this culture could still undergo significant and valuable development that now maybe does not happen?
Once they have warp drive, they're going to be heading out into the greater galactic neighborhood and meeting other spacefaring races one way or the other. The Federation is just sending the welcome wagon to try to keep negative incidents from happening. Picard explains this in the episode "First Contact".
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Old July 25 2013, 05:34 AM   #29
R. Star
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Shawnster wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.
You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda
Typically propaganda is aimed at the masses. Not your opposing counterparts who know enough to contradict such statements if they're not true.
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Old July 25 2013, 11:27 AM   #30
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.
You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda
Typically propaganda is aimed at the masses. Not your opposing counterparts who know enough to contradict such statements if they're not true.
You're assuming the romulan doesn't believe himself the propaganda. Considering he's military, he was indoctrinated for years during training with just such propaganda.

Actually, combined with internal repression/punishments (tal shiar), propaganda is quite effective at keeping the population in line.
Just look at the japanese/german populations during 1943-45.
In Germany's case, there was some resistance - after its members agonised for years about the morals of killing Hitler, the attempts fail (dramatised in a movie with Tom Cruise). Hitler kills a few thousand officers, suspected of being sympathisers.
The result: no one even looked funny at Hitler after that - even when being sent to death for nothing, the war being clearly lost and many elites being in the process of making their escape.

Hando wrote: View Post
Once a world develops the warp drive, their culture is bound to be corrupted by somebody. May as well be the Federation.
Culture being corrupted is non-sense.
There's no such thing as a pure, clean culture to be corrupted, dirtied, lessened.
Cultures are changing, mutating entities in their essence.

But the 24th century prime directive assumes cultures are immaculate and must not change, that interfering will cause mass suicides or otherwise dirty the cultures. Sociological non-sense.
Another poster correctly remarked how concepts of hygiene are erroneously being used by 24th century trek in conjunction with cultural contact.

If that's the federation's credo, it, by definition, should not go out exploring and take the chance of "corrupting" other cultures - meaning, yes, the UFP expansion is at odds with its own ideals. It should be isolationist to a ridiculous degree, afraid to even respond to hails for fear of contaminating the caller.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; July 25 2013 at 03:12 PM.
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