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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 21 2013, 02:53 PM   #31
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

It's similar to how the US has bases in places like Okinawa and Diego Garcia. In theory the Japanese and UK governments could tell them to leave. In practise they couldn't force the US military out of their bases.
If it's just a matter of might, sure, the Bajorans could not independently dislodge the federation from the base. On the other hand, states have diplomatically have the right to refuse to launch missions from their territory, even when a foreign country operates that base. As the senior Bajoran official at DS9, Kira would be the one to have immediate say over what missions are launched from DS9, regardless of who would command the Defiant.
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Old July 21 2013, 05:37 PM   #32
C.E. Evans
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Sran wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
^^^
I don't recall Kira and Worf ever having a conversation like that.
It happened in "Apocalypse Rising." Worf wanted to take the Defiant to find Sisko and Dax. Kira preferred to have the ship guarding the station, to which Worf replied, "You may command the station, but I command the Defiant."

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R. Star wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
^^^
I don't recall Kira and Worf ever having a conversation like that.
It was in Apocalypse Rising. Sisko was over due from a meeting with Starfleet and Worf wanted to go looking for him, while Kira wanted to wait. The argument was moot being Sisko arrived right as they both drew the lines.
From the scene, it seems like it was a case of Worf challenging Kira's authority and Kira reminding him who was in charge in Sisko's absence.

"Mister Worf, the Captain has given us our orders and I intend for us to follow them until he issues new ones."
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Old July 21 2013, 05:46 PM   #33
Sran
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Data's Cat wrote: View Post
And weirdly, she seems to answer equally to both Star Fleet AND Bajor. I find her role a bit confusing.
There's nothing confusing about that at all. She's the liaison officer between the two organizations, so she should answer to both. She's a representative of the Bajoran militia, but she serves under the command of a Starfleet officer. By definition, she should have one foot in each camp at all times.

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Old July 23 2013, 03:43 AM   #34
LiLiKitty
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

I have the same problem with Kira commanding the Defiant as I do with O'Brien being on the Defiant acting as engineer, yet still clearly assigned as DS9's chief engineer. As well, Cadet/Ensign/Lt. Nog acting as helmsman on the Defiant and showing up as O'Brien's engineering assistant on the station. And really, what is Sisko doing commanding both the station and the ship?

It's all very messy and confusing. In military organizations, a person is stationed to just one place with very specific duties one has been trained to fulfill. When has Kira received training for command of a warp powered ship? Of course, it could be equally asked what training did she receive to be an administrator on a space station?

For me, these sorts of things require the old "suspension of disbelief," but it is quite annoying!
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Old July 23 2013, 05:17 AM   #35
C.E. Evans
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

^^^
It helps a lot if you think that Starfleet does things differently in the future than we do today.
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Old July 23 2013, 07:44 AM   #36
Roboturner913
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Maybe the Defiant is considered an "extension" of the station, thus the command structure is the same on both the station and the ship.
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Old July 23 2013, 09:02 AM   #37
Tomalak
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Yeah, it was always an ancillary ship, with limited range. It was also initially assigned to Sisko for one mission. Obviously it came with it's own crew, and Sisko picked his officers from the station to be his senior staff. We don't see any Bajoran techs on the ship, Kira and Odo are exceptions of captain's discretion.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:45 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Let's also remember that the Defiant isn't exactly an example of standard Starfleet practice. The lemon of a prototype ship was given to Sisko for a suicide mission; that the ship ended up surviving the mission was a surprise to Starfleet, and probably to Sisko as well. It's essentially a piece of bureaucratic jetsam now, much like the whole DS9 affair: exception piled upon exception.

A more orderly starbase closer to home would no doubt have a more orderly commander, with a thing or two to say about how his or her attached ship assets are crewed and used. But Sisko revels in his exceptions, and Starfleet is delighted to have this "special arrangement" where a low-ranking outsider manages to become the de facto religious leader of the entire planet, even if this means turning a blind eye to various rules and regulations.

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Old July 23 2013, 10:55 AM   #39
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

What's perhaps surprising is that Starfleet didn't seek to replace Sisko, or appoint a senior officer above him. He's initially appointed essentially to coordinate relief efforts on Bajor, then accidentally finds himself commander of an increasingly critical outpost. I guess he proves that he can get the job done, albeit in unconventional ways. Where more by-the-book captains like Keogh and Saunders failed, he got a result.
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Old July 23 2013, 11:03 AM   #40
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

It might not have looked good to the Bajoran's if Starfleet decided to remove their Emissary to the prophets. Sure Starfleet never really liked the fact that he was but from a PR point of view so long as he was getting the job done there was no need to remove or replace him.
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Old July 23 2013, 01:09 PM   #41
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Being that DS9 is a Bajoran station and Starfleet are there at the invitation of Bajor, the Starfleet command structure would not apply. Who does what and who has what authority would be a matter of diplomacy, which is to say by whatever written agreement Starfleet has with Bajor. Consequently, DS9 would be structured and managed more like NATO or a UN peace keeping mission. It would explicitly be different from other Starfleet missions, at it would evolve organically with the situation, thus be sui generis.
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Old July 23 2013, 09:33 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Starfleet essentially did appoint a supervisor to Sisko. After a variety of Admirals from nearby starbases had given Sisko direct orders, he got a permanent big brother from Admiral Ross. It's just that Starfleet dared not station this supervisor aboard DS9, as this would have tipped off the Bajorans to the fact that their Emissary was just a pawn in a bigger game. (Okay, no need for "tipping off" - Bajorans aren't stupid. "Rubbing in the face" was the expression I was looking for.)

It would explicitly be different from other Starfleet missions, at it would evolve organically with the situation, thus be sui generis.
Which may well be what separates a "deep space station" from a "starbase" in practice! If you call it a "starbase", you have to stick to certain rules. If you choose another name, you have more leeway for opportunism.

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Old July 23 2013, 09:37 PM   #43
MacLeod
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Or it could be that the Deep Space Stations fall outside of Federation Space.
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Old July 23 2013, 09:51 PM   #44
Timo
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

Which may be much the same thing...

But yes, having Deep Space Stations be "extra-Federal" installations is great for explaining why they are only up to #9 after centuries of Starfleet operations: every time the UFP expands to embrace a DSS, it gets turned into a proper starbase and is given an appropriate number, and the old DSS number is freed for reuse.

We know it's not impossible to have Admirals on DS stations; there's a reference to one in command of DS3 in "Interface". That Sisko was a lowly Commander is thus probably good indication that the whole DSS thing is diverse and full of surprises as regards appropriate rank.

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Old July 23 2013, 10:12 PM   #45
davejames
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Re: Kira in charge of the Defiant

wingsabre wrote: View Post
I think what stands out more is when the DS9 crew leaves on the Defiant, they essentially left the command structure at the station empty. I'm sure there's a secondary crew and other senior staff on the station that's not part of the main cast, but from my perspective none of the senior staff remained to deal with possible emergencies.
Ha, yeah that always seemed odd to me as well. With the importance of the station and the continual threats facing it, you'd think Starfleet wouldn't want the entire command crew taking off on missions to the Gamma Quadrant all the time.

As for Kira, I didn't mind her commanding the ship, but I do wonder how she could be remotely qualified for it. Captaining a starship seems like something that would require a lot of training and experience, and service on other ships-- and isn't something you could just pick up through a few online courses.

Obviously she handled herself well and seemed to have good instincts, but I can't exactly imagine her captaining the Enterprise D, for instance, or dealing with some of the crises Picard had to. She was a bit too much of a blunt instrument for that.
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