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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 22 2013, 10:09 AM   #46
F. King Daniel
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

The Doctor and the Enterprise was even published, albeit without the author's consent. Details and links HERE.
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Old July 22 2013, 03:11 PM   #47
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

TheAlmanac wrote: View Post
I've been rewatching Quantum Leap lately, and this tendency has annoyed me in a similar way. Just off the top of my head, the series managed to imply the existence of alien abductions, ghosts, guardian angels, and vampires.
And this a bad thing?

I admit the only time I ever watched Starsky and Hutch was when they did their obligatory "vampire" episode . . . .
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Old July 22 2013, 03:41 PM   #48
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

sojourner wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post

(And past crossovers aren't enough to stop references. The lead character of In Plain Sight cameoed on Law & Order: Criminal Intent before the show aired; but my understanding is that the writers of IPS later made reference to Law & Order as a TV show.)

This one is actually pretty easy to reconcile. The original L&O was a tv show in the In Plain Sight universe, it just never had a spin off called Criminal Intent.
Except that one of the regulars on CI for a few years was a former L&O regular, and there were a number of crossovers among the various L&O series. If one was real, they all were. If one was fictional, they all were. (With the exception of Law & Order: UK, whose episodes are all loose remakes of episodes from the original, and thus it presumably constitutes an alternate universe.)

Of course, it's possible that in the universe shared by the L&O series and In Plain Sight, there is a fictional series called Law & Order that's about something entirely different from the L&O franchise of our universe. Although that would only work if the IPS episode referenced the title of the show and nothing else.)


Stoek wrote: View Post
Anyway, bottom line thanks to the connection between the past thanks to Benny and the future thanks to Sisko there could have been Star Trek and anyone in the future who remembers it probably would not remember much and would just shrug off any similarities as mere coincidence.
But there was no real Benny Russell. The Benny Russell visions were clearly metaphors, fantasies. The second one was a trick by the Pah-wraiths to make Sisko lose faith in his sanity and purpose, and personally I think the first one was too.



TheAlmanac wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo."
I've been rewatching Quantum Leap lately, and this tendency has annoyed me in a similar way. Just off the top of my head, the series managed to imply the existence of alien abductions, ghosts, guardian angels, and vampires.
Well, that's different, because despite its pseudo-sciencey premise and title, QL is a fantasy through and through. Its lead characters' journeys are implied to be the work of divine forces ("God or Fate or whatever"). It's not at all the same as a supposedly real-world, rationalist series like MacGyver hedging on the debunkings.
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Old July 23 2013, 02:38 PM   #49
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

I was reading a thread over in "General Discussion" about the unlikelihood of certain Trek tech, specifically the transporter. However, it occurs to me that the transporter would be much more likely to exist, as we've seen it, in the twenty-third century if some pioneering work had been done in the nineteen fifties or even the nineteen eighties.

I'm thinking hard-wired chambers a few meters apart just for proof-of-concept. (Make sure your transporter chamber has been checked for unwanted insect life before engaging.)
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Old July 23 2013, 05:57 PM   #50
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
TheAlmanac wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo."
I've been rewatching Quantum Leap lately, and this tendency has annoyed me in a similar way. Just off the top of my head, the series managed to imply the existence of alien abductions, ghosts, guardian angels, and vampires.
Well, that's different, because despite its pseudo-sciencey premise and title, QL is a fantasy through and through. Its lead characters' journeys are implied to be the work of divine forces ("God or Fate or whatever"). It's not at all the same as a supposedly real-world, rationalist series like MacGyver hedging on the debunkings.
Just because you think of a series as "fantasy" doesn't mean it's open season to include any fantastical concept you want in it. At some point, it stops really fitting with the world you've set up, even if that world isn't "supposedly real-world."

Allowing for GFT as "an unknown force" behind some aspects of Quantum Leap doesn't automatically lead to vampires. Highlander is way, way more of a fantasy series, and I still would've found it weird if a bunch of other supernatural creatures had shown up there.
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Old July 23 2013, 07:17 PM   #51
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

^Well, Quantum Leap's worldbuilding was never really cohesive enough in the first place for me to feel that such incursions into fantasy were truly out of place, though I seem to recall that I found the vampire thing unwelcome. I mean, any show that can have people blathering about "neurons and mesons" as if those are two things that have any meaningful similarity is simply not trying very hard.
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Old July 23 2013, 08:47 PM   #52
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, Quantum Leap's worldbuilding was never really cohesive enough in the first place for me to feel that such incursions into fantasy were truly out of place, though I seem to recall that I found the vampire thing unwelcome. I mean, any show that can have people blathering about "neurons and mesons" as if those are two things that have any meaningful similarity is simply not trying very hard.
You DARE to say Donald P. Belisarrio doesn't try hard! You, sir, are no gentleman
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Old July 23 2013, 09:03 PM   #53
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

I'm sure he tries hard with plot and character and drama, but when it comes to science and worldbuilding, he clearly couldn't be bothered.
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Old July 23 2013, 09:59 PM   #54
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm sure he tries hard with plot and character and drama, but when it comes to science and worldbuilding, he clearly couldn't be bothered.
Agreed. When you go back and rewatch it, it does not stand the test of time. The science is just awful.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:01 PM   #55
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

^The science was just as awful the first time around.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:08 PM   #56
Paris
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Well...I was 8 when it came out, so i didn't really notice at the time.
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Old July 23 2013, 11:03 PM   #57
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
But there was no real Benny Russell. The Benny Russell visions were clearly metaphors, fantasies. The second one was a trick by the Pah-wraiths to make Sisko lose faith in his sanity and purpose, and personally I think the first one was too.
1. I really don't see why you would argue that the vision in "Far Beyond the Stars" was sent by the Pagh-wraiths to dispirit Sisko. The entire point of that episode was that he was already demoralized, but that being reminded of the oppression of his ancestors and the value of the freedom he was defending from the Dominion was what re-ignited his spirit. It seems probable to me that this was a vision from the Prophets.

2. The novel Crucible: McCoy - Provenance of Shadows establishes that there was a real Benny Russell in the mid-20th Century. Of course, the Crucible trilogy is not set in the same continuity as most Treklit novels -- but I personally think there's a reasonable argument to be made that Benny Russell may have existed in the "real" Trekverse and that he may have been given visions of the 24th Century to inspire his writing by the Prophets -- who perhaps deliberately sought to link these two men's lives across the centuries.
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Old July 24 2013, 12:06 AM   #58
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Sci wrote: View Post
1. I really don't see why you would argue that the vision in "Far Beyond the Stars" was sent by the Pagh-wraiths to dispirit Sisko. The entire point of that episode was that he was already demoralized, but that being reminded of the oppression of his ancestors and the value of the freedom he was defending from the Dominion was what re-ignited his spirit. It seems probable to me that this was a vision from the Prophets.
But what was there in that vision that would have served to reignite his spirit? It was a story of failure and frustration that ended in despair. I know that the episode ended with Sisko's spirits raised, but I don't see why that particular story would've been chosen as the way to raise them, when it ended so hopelessly. I've always found that a flaw in the episode. It's a cool format-breaking story about the 1950s and all, but in-universe it was always difficult to see the cause and effect. The fact that the second Benny appearance was explicitly a Pah-wraith trick made the first one make sense to me for the first time, once I considered that maybe they'd both been attempts to break Sisko's spirit and that they'd both failed/backfired.


2. The novel Crucible: McCoy - Provenance of Shadows establishes that there was a real Benny Russell in the mid-20th Century. Of course, the Crucible trilogy is not set in the same continuity as most Treklit novels -- but I personally think there's a reasonable argument to be made that Benny Russell may have existed in the "real" Trekverse and that he may have been given visions of the 24th Century to inspire his writing by the Prophets -- who perhaps deliberately sought to link these two men's lives across the centuries.
I just don't find that convincing. The scenario in FBTS was too allegorical.

Plus it makes the Prophets real jerks, ruining that poor guy's life just so they could send Sisko a cryptic vision they could just as easily have fabricated as a pure illusion.
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Old July 24 2013, 12:24 AM   #59
E-DUB
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

OK, Benny Russell moves to Los Angeles. He meets a certain police officer who moonlights as a writer. They start comparing notes......................
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Old July 24 2013, 12:38 AM   #60
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
But what was there in that vision that would have served to reignite his spirit? It was a story of failure and frustration that ended in despair. I know that the episode ended with Sisko's spirits raised, but I don't see why that particular story would've been chosen as the way to raise them, when it ended so hopelessly. I've always found that a flaw in the episode. It's a cool format-breaking story about the 1950s and all, but in-universe it was always difficult to see the cause and effect. The fact that the second Benny appearance was explicitly a Pah-wraith trick made the first one make sense to me for the first time, once I considered that maybe they'd both been attempts to break Sisko's spirit and that they'd both failed/backfired.

Plus it makes the Prophets real jerks, ruining that poor guy's life just so they could send Sisko a cryptic vision they could just as easily have fabricated as a pure illusion.
For me the point is that at the beginning Sisko is feeling as if everything he does is futile. This is a person who is tasked with an enormous responsibility and the Prophets take him and show him what it is like to live a life of true futility, where he doesn't struggle merely against a foe for the survival of his way of life, but struggles to be accorded basic human respect.

Compared to the trials of being told that because of the color of your skin you're not good enough to sit at the same lunch counter as people of a different color skin, the travails of the Dominion War while no less trying I think are put in perspective for Sisko at least a little bit.

I also don't think that The Prophets did anything to "ruin" Benny's life. I think that what happened to him would have happened any way. I think that the basic idea for his stories came to him all on their own, and it was just the details that he got from his connection with Sisko.
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