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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Persistence of Memory.
Outstanding 71 56.35%
Above Average 41 32.54%
Average 12 9.52%
Below Average 1 0.79%
Poor 1 0.79%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 22 2013, 08:19 PM   #451
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

^Lore was viable with a "fault" -- he was a fully functional sentient, learning, even emotional being, but he was a psychopath. B-4 had the equivalent of a severe learning disability.

Julianna said the other three prototypes were "lost." She made it sound like they died. I've always assumed that meant they suffered cascade failure just like Lal (and Rayna Kapec, most likely), that they couldn't cope with emotional conflicts without collapse. The fix Soong attempted to solve the emotional-conflict issue with Lore resulted in his psychopathy, his lack of empathy for others; there's no emotional conflict if he never cares about anyone but himself. So Soong just deferred the whole emotion question and built Data with that capacity suppressed until he could achieve a viable fix.

B-4's limitations are on a very different level, a lack of cognitive ability. He wasn't "lost," he didn't collapse; he just plain didn't work. So he seems like an earlier model to me.

And as I said, I think the only way B-4's existence can be reconciled with Julianna's account is if he was made before the three prototypes she knew about.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:55 PM   #452
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Perhaps after the painful experinces she had with the three protptypes, Soong built B-4 without her knowledge (after all, he certainly wasn't on Omicron Theta in "Datalore"), then with B-4 as a working/sentient and stable proof-of-concept, he came back and created Lore.
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Old July 23 2013, 01:21 PM   #453
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

^That feels labored. The only advantage of that is that it justifies the "4" as a literal number, but as I've said, the movie clearly presents "B-4" as a pun, so I see no advantage in taking it literally.
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Old July 23 2013, 01:33 PM   #454
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I'd say it wasPicard's opinion in Nemesis that B-4 is a whimsical name, not necessarily proof that Soong intended it to be that way.
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Old July 23 2013, 01:44 PM   #455
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

^Perhaps, but the point is that we're not required to assume that B-4 was the fourth prototype, that there's reason to at least be open to the possibility that the name is not literal. I've explained my reasons why I think it makes more sense for him to be the first one, and the single detail that there happens to be a "4" in his name is not enough to outweigh all those considerations in my mind.
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Old July 23 2013, 02:08 PM   #456
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Fair enough.
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Old July 23 2013, 06:44 PM   #457
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Perhaps after the painful experinces she had with the three protptypes, Soong built B-4 without her knowledge (after all, he certainly wasn't on Omicron Theta in "Datalore"), then with B-4 as a working/sentient and stable proof-of-concept, he came back and created Lore.
Christopher wrote: View Post
^That feels labored. The only advantage of that is that it justifies the "4" as a literal number, but as I've said, the movie clearly presents "B-4" as a pun, so I see no advantage in taking it literally.
Then I'm sure it will dismay you to learn that the scenario posited by King Daniel is, in fact, how I depicted the sequence of events (and their motivations) in The Persistence of Memory. So, regardless of whether you would have done it that way, in terms of Treklit continuity, you are now stuck with it.
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Old July 23 2013, 07:15 PM   #458
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

^Oh, that's right. You had him go away for a while, make B-4, and then come back, didn't you? I guess that's more plausible that what I was assuming.
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Old July 24 2013, 12:42 AM   #459
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

David Mack wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Perhaps after the painful experinces she had with the three protptypes, Soong built B-4 without her knowledge (after all, he certainly wasn't on Omicron Theta in "Datalore"), then with B-4 as a working/sentient and stable proof-of-concept, he came back and created Lore.
Christopher wrote: View Post
^That feels labored. The only advantage of that is that it justifies the "4" as a literal number, but as I've said, the movie clearly presents "B-4" as a pun, so I see no advantage in taking it literally.
Then I'm sure it will dismay you to learn that the scenario posited by King Daniel is, in fact, how I depicted the sequence of events (and their motivations) in The Persistence of Memory. So, regardless of whether you would have done it that way, in terms of Treklit continuity, you are now stuck with it.
Well personally I'm glad you did. It helped to redeem what I feel is one of the stupidest ideas and characters in the history of Trek. Frankly for me pretty much everything that came from Nem was a turd falling into the Trek punchbowl with the noteable exception of bringing Worf back to Starfleet and getting Riker married to Troi and in command of his own ship.

Overall I despise the movie for a lot of reasons and have frankly been amazed at how much decent material the TLit writers have been able to get out of that shit sandwich.

Data's death was one of the most egregious outcomes and one of the most stupid and pointless deaths ever, so seeing it undone has thrilled me no end.
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Old March 5 2014, 03:42 PM   #460
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I'm reading it now; almost finishing.

But an amusing note:

When I reached page 300 or so with the Breen ship named Mlotek (Młotek - Hammer), with Pazur (Claw) and Zadlo (Żądło - Sting) on board, I wondered if that's just a hilarious coincidence, or someone was playing with a Polish dictionary

But once I reached cruisers Gwiazda (Star), Zemsta (Revenge) and Obranca (Obrońca? - Defender) I feel like quoting Garak: "I believe in coincidences, coincidences happen all the time, but I don't trust coincidences".
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Old March 5 2014, 05:11 PM   #461
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Part of my family history is Polish, and my brother has been researching our family tree. Consequently, he took up the study of the Polish language, which in turn stoked my own curiosity.

When I'm looking for non-English names for other cultures' ships, etc., I also look frequently to Finnish, Swahili, or Welsh.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:43 PM   #462
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I suspected there could be a family factor
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Old March 5 2014, 07:15 PM   #463
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Priority Communication to Central Command, Clearance Level Semtuk-Seven-Red.

Gul Re'jal is believed to be a Breen infiltrator. Revoke all command codes and security clearances immediately.

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Old March 6 2014, 01:58 PM   #464
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Priority Communication to Central Command, Clearance Level Semtuk-Seven-Red.

Gul Re'jal is believed to be a Breen infiltrator. Revoke all command codes and security clearances immediately.

Oh, you silly monolingual. Of course it didn't occur to you that Gul Re'jal learnt Breen to spy on them, did it?



I've finished the book and I have "double-feeling", as the book included two stories.

I enjoyed the Enterprise parts very much. Packed with events, action, and a surprise (even though I'd known Choudhury's fate, I didn't know when, why or how, so it took me by surprise).

The Soong part was a lot tougher to get through. Diary, everyday life stories with no clear plot, mystery or any other "lure" are not my cup of tea. I understand it was necessary for the whole story and it's not time wasted, but it didn't hold my interest as the other parts of the book.

Now, to Book II
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Old March 6 2014, 06:58 PM   #465
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Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Gul Re'jal wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Priority Communication to Central Command, Clearance Level Semtuk-Seven-Red.

Gul Re'jal is believed to be a Breen infiltrator. Revoke all command codes and security clearances immediately.

Oh, you silly monolingual. Of course it didn't occur to you that Gul Re'jal learnt Breen to spy on them, did it?
Ouch!

Still: learning other languages? Preposterous! Loudly insist that other people learn your language and look down on them as inferiors if they don't. That, my dear Gul Re'jal, is how an Englishman do. You'll never fit in with your current attitude, I assure you!
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