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Old July 23 2013, 09:30 AM   #46
MacLeod
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
The Federation had no claim for eminant to a planet that was already inhabiated, calimed by another race before the Federation was estalished. The Ba'ku had no representation in the Federation to fight the sizeure of their land.

If the Ba'ku had settled the planet after the Federation was formed and it was within Federation sapce then the Federation could lay claim to eminant domain.
The planet belongs to the federation as per federation law/interstellar treaties AKA under alpha/beta quadrant law, the federation does have the right to institute eminent domain.

BTW, the briar patch, before belonging to the federation, belonged to one of its member species or to someone else who gave it to the federation by treaty/etc AKA the baku settled land that already belonged to someone else.
Which means even eminent domain may not be applicable; the baku could be simply evicted. Unless you assume adverse possession took place (and there are a lot of conditions that must be met for this).
Even if you accept a claim for eminant domain, the government can't come in simply overnight and whisk you off.

Are you saying it would be ok for your government to just decide without telling you it wants the land your house resides on. Come along one day and just remove you from it.
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Old July 23 2013, 09:59 AM   #47
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

MacLeod:
First, the baku are more like trespassers than legitimate owners. And trespassers are evicted.


Second, if the baku somehow own the land their village is on as per federation law (600 in a small village owning the entire planet is absurd), as I already said:
"Indeed, the clandestine plot was idiotic.
The federation council should have invoked eminent domain through the legal channels. Assuming the baku had any legal right to the planet under federation law, that is (it doesn't look like it)."

Invoking eminent domain implies, of course, just compensation (and proving public interest - easy to prove, in this case) AKA giving the baku other land to live their preferred lifestyle and giving them priority to the medical advances that will ensure their continued immortality.
And if the baku would refuse this because they can't be bothered to use hyposprays, these being not pastoral enough for them - frankly, giving into such demands of egoist assholes at the cost of all the suffering the medical advances could prevent is immoral.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:20 AM   #48
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

The Ba'ku can be immoral if they like, you and I may not like it but such is life. The Ba'ku wer initially thought to be pre-warp as such the Prime Directive applies, once the connection between the Son'a and the Ba'ku was discovered it became an internal matter between them also a Prime Directive matter. So to up hold their ideals the Federation had no buinsess being there in the first place. Sometimes upholding your ideals/morals puts you in a weaker position.

Really given the planets location within the Briar Patch the Son'a might have been able to go and do the deed without the Federation being aware of it.
But as you say the clandestine plot was absurd.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:28 AM   #49
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

MacLeod, as per the movie Dougherty told Picard from the beginning that the prime directive doesn't apply because the baku (and then, the sona) are not natives and interfering doesn't disturb their natural evolution.
So, the baku can be immoral if they like - only to be bitch-slapped by the federation evicting them.

Also, don't think I haven't noticed how you went from legitimate arguments to the fictional 24th century Prime Directive - which is based on garbage (aka proven false) anthropology and sociology.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:28 AM   #50
marksound
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

So the Feds didn't learn their lesson from the Organians? Just because a civilization looks like it's undeveloped, and you think they won't notice being moved during the night, it doesn't mean that they don't secretly have the power to bite your arrogant ass off and spit it back in your face. If they wanted to.

Why not make first contact and explain the situation? They might just volunteer to move, for the "needs of the many." You're screwing with them anyway, why would you care if they suddenly became aware of space travel?

I agree with Picard.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:33 AM   #51
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
So the Feds didn't learn their lesson from the Organians? Just because a civilization looks like it's undeveloped, and you think they won't notice being moved during the night, it doesn't mean that they don't secretly have the power to bite your arrogant ass off and spit it back in your face. If they wanted to.
Guess what? The baku don't have the power to enforce any of their claims.

And if you think the federation arrogant, you haven't been paying attention to klingons, romulans, etc - or the good old USA, China, etc.

Why not make first contact and explain the situation? They might just volunteer to move, for the "needs of the many." You're screwing with them anyway, why would you care if they suddenly became aware of space travel?
What you just described is eminent domain. Its first stage, that is.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:41 AM   #52
MacLeod
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Except the Federation didn't do that, so the Federation never tried to establish eminant domain at least legally.

Anyway I think we are verring slighlty off the thread topic, the Ba'ku situation has been discussed ad infinatum in the movie forums.
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Old July 23 2013, 10:44 AM   #53
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
MacLeod, as per the movie Dougherty told Picard from the beginning that the prime directive doesn't apply because the baku (and then, the sona) are not natives and interfering doesn't disturb their natural evolution.
It's been a while since I've seen the film, but I thought it was only after Data went crazy and Picard spoke to Sojef that he found out they were not natives. Picard is the one who tells Dougherty that the Prime Directive is unbroken in his report. I'd have to rewatch to be sure though.

If Starfleet knows from the start the Baku are space-farers, why bother with the duck blind?
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Old July 23 2013, 11:02 AM   #54
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
If Starfleet knows from the start the Baku are space-farers, why bother with the duck blind?
Without the duck blind and the plan to kidnap the baku, the movie would have no plot and Picard would be left without support for his self-righteous speeches.
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Old July 23 2013, 11:36 AM   #55
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

You could say that about any Star Trek episode
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Old July 23 2013, 01:29 PM   #56
marksound
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
So the Feds didn't learn their lesson from the Organians? Just because a civilization looks like it's undeveloped, and you think they won't notice being moved during the night, it doesn't mean that they don't secretly have the power to bite your arrogant ass off and spit it back in your face. If they wanted to.
Guess what? The baku don't have the power to enforce any of their claims.
In your opinion. The Baku settled on an uninhabited planet and had been there, how long? The Federation, by its own policy, didn't have a legal leg to stand on.

And if you think the federation arrogant, you haven't been paying attention to klingons, romulans, etc - or the good old USA, China, etc.
And that makes it right ... right?

Why not make first contact and explain the situation? They might just volunteer to move, for the "needs of the many." You're screwing with them anyway, why would you care if they suddenly became aware of space travel?
What you just described is eminent domain. Its first stage, that is.
Sounds more like what they used to call "manifest destiny." You know, like in the early 1800s when the US Gov't. took Native American lands by treaty, and when that didn't work, taking the land by force. It was "legal," but it wasn't right.

Regardless of the benefits to other Federation citizens, moving a colony of people against their will is not the right thing to do.

Besides, there was no guarantee that the particles or whatever they were would work outside that environment anyway. If the experiment failed, you've wronged a bunch of people and destroyed a planet for nothing.
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Old July 23 2013, 02:00 PM   #57
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Carcazoid, have you even watched the movie?

You only made a single point that that was not contradicted by the movie (we saw the full extent of baku 'power'; the federation has 2 legal legs to stand on and then some; it's near-certain the harvesting method will work) or was not an irrelevant value judgement:
The movie wanted to convey a situation like the trial of tears, etc. That's obvious.
What's also obvious is that it failed to do so. Equating an obvious eminent domain situation to the conquest of the amerindians is quite the straw-man.
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Old July 23 2013, 08:59 PM   #58
MacLeod
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

But it isn't an obvious eminant domain.

1.>We don't know how that region came to be Federation
2.>The Ba'ku settled on that world prior to the Federation being founded.
3.>If the Ba'ku settled on that world prior to anyone claiming it fell within their sphere of influence then eminant domain can't apply.

Is there a specifc line in the film that says that region belonged to another power prior to the Ba'ku setteling on the planet?
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Old July 23 2013, 09:19 PM   #59
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Already answered:
www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=8415364&postcthe borgount=41

Plus, the federation doesn't claim no one's land without searching for the civilisations/life-forms existing there. Indeed, no local power is portrayed as quite so negligent/lazy.


BTW, I and my neighbors can't claim an uninhabited island by hiding there. There are a series a conditions to be met - and the baku meet none of them.

Nor can I and my neighbors claim the legal system doesn't apply to me and make our own - again, there are a lot of conditions to be met; conditions the baku don't meet.
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Old July 23 2013, 09:26 PM   #60
MacLeod
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

^No I asked for an explicit line i.e

"This region of space was claimed by x in (year) which was before the Ba'ku settled on that world" or something similiar.

Sure the Federation could have had it ceded to them by treaty but if the Ba'ku settled on that world in say 2090 and x species claimed that region as within their sphere of influence in 2091. Then the Ba'ku where there first.
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