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Old July 21 2013, 08:46 PM   #31
MacLeod
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

If the Son'a petioned the Federation council to help them remove the Ba'ku. Then the order could maybe be classed at being at the behest of the Son'a.
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Old July 21 2013, 08:54 PM   #32
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
If the Son'a petioned the Federation council to help them remove the Ba'ku. Then the order could maybe be classed at being at the behest of the Son'a.
Thank you. This is stated much more eloquently than what I'd said previously. In any case, it's clear from the film's events that the Son'a were the driving force behind what was happening. As soon as Picard blew the lid off their common ancestry with the Ba'ku, the gig was off.

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Old July 22 2013, 07:39 AM   #33
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
If the Son'a petioned the Federation council to help them remove the Ba'ku. Then the order could maybe be classed at being at the behest of the Son'a.
Hmm, don't think so. As I see it, the Sona approached the Federation Council informing them that the Federation possessed a natural resource that they weren't aware of. The Sona had the equipment to harvest it. After Starfleet checked out the planet and verified the properties of the rings the Federation and the Sona formed a partnership.

The Sona weren't working for the Federation.
The Federation weren't working for the Sona.

At some point a Starfleet Admiral was assigned to over see the Federation's interests in the operation. At no point was he under the control of the Sona, or taking their orders.

Dougherty's attempted relocation of the Baku was by the orders of the Council, and not at the behest of the Sona. The Sona were powerless to give him such orders.

And I doubt the Sona "petioned the Federation Council to help them remove the Baku," to the Federation moving the Baku was incidental. As far as the Federation was concerned the Baku were being relocated solely to protect them from the harvesting process.

In the Federation's eyes, the primary concern was the harvesting of the particles in the ring, the particles that would help so many billions of their own people.

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Old July 22 2013, 10:00 AM   #34
MacLeod
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

The point is that the Son'a approached the UFP about the planet. Otherwise it would likely have gone unnoticed for who knows how long. At some point the Son'a went to the council and petitioned the Federation about the planet. As the Federation sent a ship for the sole purpose of forcibly relocating the population they Son'a must have said something about the planet being inhabitated. They however negleted to inform them the inhabitants of the planet and the Son'a where related.

Starfleet was operating under the orders of the Federation council no one is denying that, but the Federation council was given misleading information by the Son'a who were trying to get revenge for being exiled. Would the Federation Council have given starfleet a different set of orders if they new the truth?
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Old July 22 2013, 12:57 PM   #35
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

None of this changes that Picard was right in what he did, as Starfleet was clearly up to no good, and knew it. They were violating the Prime Directive by interfering with the Baku. If it was all above board, Dougherty would just have been straight with Picard. Instead he did everything he could, including threatening to kill Data, to keep it from the Enterprise crew. Just because the Admiral was acting on orders from the Federation Council doesn't mean he was blameless. "I was following orders" is no defence.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:09 PM   #36
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
None of this changes that Picard was right in what he did, as Starfleet was clearly up to no good, and knew it. They were violating the Prime Directive by interfering with the Baku. If it was all above board, Dougherty would just have been straight with Picard. Instead he did everything he could, including threatening to kill Data, to keep it from the Enterprise crew. Just because the Admiral was acting on orders from the Federation Council doesn't mean he was blameless. "I was following orders" is no defence.
Whether Picard was right or wrong is highly debatable - and debated on this forum. It's about the billions that suffered due to Picard's refusal to institute eminent domain.

The movie made clear that, in that specific case, the Prime Directive was not broken by interfering with the baku.
Also, 24th century Prime Directive is garbage.

PS - "I was following orders" - regardless of the orders - is a rock solid defence, provided the winning side gave you the orders.

PS2:
Sran wrote: View Post
T'Gir wrote:
Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.
That's not what I said, and I think you know it. I'm going to ask you again to stop being a smart-ass. It's not funny. It's not cute. If you have something worthwhile to say in response to my posts, that's fine. But if you're going to play these stupid word games for your own amusement, find someone else with whom to waste your time.
Actually, Dougherty acting at the behest of the sona is exactly what you said, Sran. No superiority complex can change this fact.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:25 PM   #37
marksound
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Picard's refusal to institute eminent domain.
It seems more to me like "manifest destiny" than "eminent domain."
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Old July 22 2013, 07:26 PM   #38
Tomalak
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

The movie made clear that, in that specific case, the Prime Directive was not broken by interfering with the baku.
But that's only after Data blows the gig, and Picard finds out the Baku are warp capable. Before that, as far as Dougherty and the Federation Council knew, they were just 600 primitive natives, and proceeded to try to move them to a different planet.

But having established that fact, Dougherty still wasn't clear with Picard, or the Baku. Instead of sitting around a table and reasoning with the Baku, which was eminently possible, they continued with their clandestine plot to forcibly remove the planet's population.

You can talk about utilitarian need, but that's not the only consideration in this instance.

PS - "I was following orders" - regardless of the orders - is a rock solid defence, provided the winning side gave you the orders.
The winning side is rather unlikely to bring it to court. That doesn't change the moral issue with which Picard was grappling.

Let's not forget that eventually even Dougherty realised that he'd failed, was in the wrong, and that the mission was over. That's when the crazy bad guy ripped his face apart and tried to obliterate the planet's population. If it weren't for Ruafo, motivated primarily by bitterness and misplaced hatred, everyone would have gone home happily.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:33 PM   #39
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

The Federation had no claim for eminant to a planet that was already inhabiated, calimed by another race before the Federation was estalished. The Ba'ku had no representation in the Federation to fight the sizeure of their land.

If the Ba'ku had settled the planet after the Federation was formed and it was within Federation sapce then the Federation could lay claim to eminant domain.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:39 PM   #40
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

The movie made clear that, in that specific case, the Prime Directive was not broken by interfering with the baku.
But that's only after Data blows the gig, and Picard finds out the Baku are warp capable. Before that, as far as Dougherty and the Federation Council knew, they were just 600 primitive natives, and proceeded to try to move them to a different planet.
Actually, Dougherty told Picard the prime directive doesn't apply because the baku are not natives and their natural evolution will not be disturbed.
No Data or 'warp capable' needed.

But having established that fact, Dougherty still wasn't clear with Picard, or the Baku. Instead of sitting around a table and reasoning with the Baku, which was eminently possible, they continued with their clandestine plot to forcibly remove the planet's population.
Indeed, the clandestine plot was idiotic.
The federation council should have invoked eminent domain through the legal channels. Assuming the baku had any legal right to the planet under federation law, that is (it doesn't look like it).

You can talk about utilitarian need, but that's not the only consideration in this instance.
And what are these poorly defined considerations?

PS - "I was following orders" - regardless of the orders - is a rock solid defence, provided the winning side gave you the orders.
The winning side is rather unlikely to bring it to court. That doesn't change the moral issue with which Picard was grappling.
Not moral (which, as said, is highly debatable here) doesn't get one in prison if he was the winning side's peon.
As said, rock solid defence.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:47 PM   #41
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The Federation had no claim for eminant to a planet that was already inhabiated, calimed by another race before the Federation was estalished. The Ba'ku had no representation in the Federation to fight the sizeure of their land.

If the Ba'ku had settled the planet after the Federation was formed and it was within Federation sapce then the Federation could lay claim to eminant domain.
The planet belongs to the federation as per federation law/interstellar treaties AKA under alpha/beta quadrant law, the federation does have the right to institute eminent domain.

BTW, the briar patch, before belonging to the federation, belonged to one of its member species or to someone else who gave it to the federation by treaty/etc AKA the baku settled land that already belonged to someone else.
Which means even eminent domain may not be applicable; the baku could be simply evicted. Unless you assume adverse possession took place (and there are a lot of conditions that must be met for this).
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Old July 22 2013, 11:15 PM   #42
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Mage wrote: View Post
In the novels, Worf has been offered his first command, but refused. First, because he feels comfortable aboard the E as it's first officer, and second, he still feels that he doesn't deserve to be a captain. People around him have been trying to tell him that he has changed since the events from Change of Heart, one of them being Picard himself.

So yeah, we'll see what happens I suppose.
Yeah. In the novels he is clearly being groomed to take over the Enterprise-E, whether or not the flagship of the Federation makes sense for a first command. He has done enough exceptional stuff since "Change of Heart" that really the only obstacle left in his own mind.

That would end up as Worf as Captain, and Geordi has XO (Unless Data actively rejoins Starfleet, then he would probably become XO).
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Old July 22 2013, 11:28 PM   #43
Sran
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Wally wrote: View Post
Yeah. In the novels he is clearly being groomed to take over the Enterprise-E, whether or not the flagship of the Federation makes sense for a first command. He has done enough exceptional stuff since "Change of Heart" that really the only obstacle left in his own mind.
One could imagine Picard would have a lot of say in who succeeds him as Enterprise captain given how long he's commanded the vessel. And Worf would certainly have the backing of other respected officers (Sisko, Riker, O'Brien) and the leader of an allied government (Martok) to help him along.

Wally wrote:
That would end up as Worf as Captain, and Geordi has XO (Unless Data actively rejoins Starfleet, then he would probably become XO).
Not necessarily. There's always the possibility that Worf names an outsider as his first officer. Not every position has to be filled by a current Enterprise officer. LaForge would be a good choice, but it figures that a position such as Enterprise executive officer would attract a great deal of interest. Remember how badly Shelby wanted the job when she thought Riker was leaving.

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Old July 23 2013, 12:14 AM   #44
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

The main attraction with Geordi is that he needs to be moved onto the command track in time to be made captain of the USS Challenger by 2390.
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Old July 23 2013, 01:09 AM   #45
Sran
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
The main attraction with Geordi is that he needs to be moved onto the command track in time to be made captain of the USS Challenger by 2390.
Why? Because of "Timeless?" That happened in an alternate reality in which Kim and Chakotay were the only survivors from the doomed Voyager slipstream experiment.

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