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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 21 2013, 03:09 PM   #31
Kinokima
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yeah, that would've been pretty much impossible. British audiences never saw Star Trek until July 1969, three weeks after the final Troughton episode ended and about six weeks after TOS's final episode aired. And US audiences didn't see Doctor Who until the '70s, in limited release, and then more widely in the '80s. So at the time both shows were on the air, neither show's audience would've had any awareness of the other, and indeed neither show's producers would've been likely to have much awareness of the other.
Thanks for the Doctor Who history (I did not know when it actually came over to the States).

I knew it was an unrealistic fantasy but it's still something I would have loved to see.

Of course in a lot of cases Crossovers are badly written in my opinion and don't often live up to the hype.
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Old July 21 2013, 03:16 PM   #32
Lonemagpie
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Pretty much everything fits (or not) into Dr Who equally because of its constantly-changing timelines, that are often contradicted within the series itself. (And Dr Who is in fact fictional within the show itself on a couple of occasions!)

As for one show being fictional in another - that's less of a problem when you note that a) reality and art often cross in real life, and b) as often as not a show will be treated as real in one episode of the other franchise, and fictional in another, so you can take your pick. E.g. Trek is fictional in several Stargate episodes, but bat'leths appear in at least one...)
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Old July 21 2013, 03:43 PM   #33
Greg Cox
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
^I don't remember that one.
Re: "McCloud Meets Dracula":

Carradine played (imagine!) an elderly horror actor who was now draining the blood of innocent victims in real life. But was he just an old-time Dracula actor whom had lost his grip on reality (the rational explanation) or was he actually a vampire posing as an actor who played a vampire? At the end, he supposedly falls to his death into a river, but there was note of ambiguity about it--and, say, what's with that bat flapping away?
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Old July 21 2013, 05:28 PM   #34
Christopher
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo." MacGyver did it a lot in episodes where he debunked Bigfoot, UFOs, and the like. I prefer solid, unambiguous debunkings. If the writers want to say that something isn't real, they should take a stand and say it isn't real, not hedge for fear of offending anyone.

Of course, what you're describing isn't quite the same thing, but it reminded me of that, and I've had that rant simmering in my brain for decades.
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Old July 21 2013, 05:50 PM   #35
Greg Cox
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo." MacGyver did it a lot in episodes where he debunked Bigfoot, UFOs, and the like. I prefer solid, unambiguous debunkings. If the writers want to say that something isn't real, they should take a stand and say it isn't real, not hedge for fear of offending anyone.

Of course, what you're describing isn't quite the same thing, but it reminded me of that, and I've had that rant simmering in my brain for decades.
I doubt if the intent is to avoid offending anyone, so much as to add a spooky little frisson at the end . . . just for fun.

I don't think anyone watches McCloud or MaGyver to get their worldview validated. It's just fun to pretend that, ooh, maybe there really was something fantastic going on after all. It's just a cute way to work some sf/fantasy content into a mainstream show without going off the deep end . . . .
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Old July 22 2013, 12:04 AM   #36
tmclough
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Sto-Vo-Kory wrote: View Post

Off hand, I can't remember a Trek episode that could explain away in-universe references to "beam me up" or "Vulcan neck grips" in the modern day of the Trekverse. Was there any mention of a "Trek-like" TV show in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars series?
Not that I recall, although there were some "Captain Proton" references in the third Khan book.

As I recall, I was sometimes coy and phrased things so that it was ambiguous as to whether, say, Emma Peel was being referenced as a real person or a fictional character on a TV show.
I seem to recall a direct reference to Star Trek itself. I believe, though I'm not positive, that somebody was watching the show, probably in the 1970s.
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Old July 22 2013, 01:44 AM   #37
Cybersnark
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Sto-Vo-Kory wrote: View Post
Off hand, I can't remember a Trek episode that could explain away in-universe references to "beam me up" or "Vulcan neck grips" in the modern day of the Trekverse. Was there any mention of a "Trek-like" TV show in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars series?
There's a Trek-as-TV reference in The Rings of Time, when Zoe speculates about "sexy green girls."

Personally, I like to think that Titan: Synthesis is a covert Transformers crossover. The Sentries believe that FirstGen Zero-One was destroyed in slipspace, but what if it simply decanted into another universe?

It would immediately cast about for signs of the Null, and, finding none, would produce a batch of SecondGen, programmed to keep vigilant watch for the destroyer --the physical incarnation of Chaos. It would then go dormant to conserve power.

Aeons later, this initial programming has drifted into legend and myth, and ultimately the SecondGen turn on themselves in a civil war. . .
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Old July 22 2013, 01:56 AM   #38
Darth Duck
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

With all the Yoyodyne references sprinkled about on dedication plaques can we make V and The Crying of Lot 49 fit? Could Trystero have played a role in the founding of Section 31?
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Old July 22 2013, 02:48 AM   #39
Christopher
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Cybersnark wrote: View Post
There's a Trek-as-TV reference in The Rings of Time, when Zoe speculates about "sexy green girls."
Well, in-universe that could be a reference to other science fiction, since ST never had a monopoly on green alien women. After all, it's a natural extension of the "little green men" trope that's been around since the early 20th century. There was a green alien temptress who appeared in two Lost in Space episodes, for example.


Darth Duck wrote: View Post
With all the Yoyodyne references sprinkled about on dedication plaques can we make V and The Crying of Lot 49 fit? Could Trystero have played a role in the founding of Section 31?
Well, those are meant more as references to Buckaroo Banzai, which in turn referenced Yoyodyne.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:23 AM   #40
sojourner
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

ATimson wrote: View Post

(And past crossovers aren't enough to stop references. The lead character of In Plain Sight cameoed on Law & Order: Criminal Intent before the show aired; but my understanding is that the writers of IPS later made reference to Law & Order as a TV show.)

This one is actually pretty easy to reconcile. The original L&O was a tv show in the In Plain Sight universe, it just never had a spin off called Criminal Intent.
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Old July 22 2013, 07:30 AM   #41
Greg Cox
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Christopher wrote: View Post
Cybersnark wrote: View Post
There's a Trek-as-TV reference in The Rings of Time, when Zoe speculates about "sexy green girls."
Well, in-universe that could be a reference to other science fiction, since ST never had a monopoly on green alien women. After all, it's a natural extension of the "little green men" trope that's been around since the early 20th century. There was a green alien temptress who appeared in two Lost in Space episodes, for example.
.
Not mention various Skrull females in The Fantastic Four, Gamora from the old ADAM WARLOCK comics, the Impossible Woman, etc.

Certainly, I was making a Trek in-joke there, but I thought that the concept of sexy green-skinned alien babes was generic enough that I wasn't explicitly saying that Trek existed as TV show in that universe.
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Old July 22 2013, 08:06 AM   #42
Stoek
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Cybersnark wrote: View Post
There's a Trek-as-TV reference in The Rings of Time, when Zoe speculates about "sexy green girls."
Well, in-universe that could be a reference to other science fiction, since ST never had a monopoly on green alien women. After all, it's a natural extension of the "little green men" trope that's been around since the early 20th century. There was a green alien temptress who appeared in two Lost in Space episodes, for example.
.
Not mention various Skrull females in The Fantastic Four, Gamora from the old ADAM WARLOCK comics, the Impossible Woman, etc.

Certainly, I was making a Trek in-joke there, but I thought that concept of sexy green-skinned alien babes was generic enough that I wasn't explicitly saying that Trek existed as TV show in that universe.
Well who's to say that it has to not exist?

Come and follow the bouncing ball...

There is a pulp sci fi writer named Benny Russel. Benny writes a couple of stories set in an optimistic future before he kind of up and disappears. A young pilot later police officer named Gene Roddenberry read those stories and quietly borrowed a few concepts to create a tv series pitch which he named Star Trek.

Trek lasts roughly a season before being cancelled and forgotten about.

Meanwhile a rival show on another network Lost In Space goes on to become a major cultural phenomenon, lasting several seasons and then a mere decade after it goes off the air returns in the first of six major motion pictures. To everyone's surprise and delight lightning is caught in a jar again when Lost In Space: The Next Generation debuts in '87 in first run syndication.

Later there are two more spin off sequel series, a small number of LIS:TNG movies, and even eventually a prequel and a reboot. Around the same time as the reboot movie earth's society grows increasingly dark and grim. A coincidence? I think not.

Anyway, bottom line thanks to the connection between the past thanks to Benny and the future thanks to Sisko there could have been Star Trek and anyone in the future who remembers it probably would not remember much and would just shrug off any similarities as mere coincidence.
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Old July 22 2013, 09:00 AM   #43
TheAlmanac
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

ATimson wrote: View Post
(And past crossovers aren't enough to stop references. The lead character of In Plain Sight cameoed on Law & Order: Criminal Intent before the show aired; but my understanding is that the writers of IPS later made reference to Law & Order as a TV show.)
Similarly, Mad About You established that Paul used to live in the apartment now rented by Kramer, but Seinfeld later showed George watching Mad About You on TV.

The same thing happened with John Munch appearing on The X-Files, even though he had referred to it as a TV series on Homicide.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo."
I've been rewatching Quantum Leap lately, and this tendency has annoyed me in a similar way. Just off the top of my head, the series managed to imply the existence of alien abductions, ghosts, guardian angels, and vampires.
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Old July 22 2013, 09:30 AM   #44
NightJim
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Quantum Leap was immediately what I thought of when that trend was mentioned eariler. Then I got reminded of the greatest crossover that never was. Quantum Leap/Magnum PI. They'd even started filming. I cry at the loss of TV gold right there.

Munch also gets you from Homicide to Law & Order thanks to SVU obviously.
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Old July 22 2013, 09:57 AM   #45
James Swallow
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Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs

Kinokima wrote: View Post
I wish there was a Doctor Who crossover during Star Trek's original run. Patrick Troughton was the Doctor then...that would have been fantastic. But a dream is just a dream.
There's been a couple of Tom Baker-era Doctor Who/TOS cross-overs - Jean Airey's unofficial The Doctor and The Enterprise, and more recently some of the IDW Assimilation2 comics miniseries.

But then again, in more recent Doctor Who continuity, Star Trek has been referenced as a TV show in that universe - remember Rose Tyler's request to the Doctor to "give me some Spock"?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think it's been suggested that it might be possible to fit Blake's 7 into the Trek continuity as a dystopian future, one where the Federation has turned oppressive and evil. It probably doesn't fit due to the lack of established Trek races, though.
Both shows did have Andromedans, though...

Of course, Blake's 7 is set in the 27th Century (late 2670's), so there's plenty of time for a mass die-off event to get rid of all those pesky aliens. And their planets. And all evidence of them. And anyone who ever heard of them...

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