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Old June 23 2013, 05:07 AM   #31
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
Because Kirk apparently had orders to loiter with intent, to meddle whenever possible, and to satisfy idle curiosity
Really? Those were Kirks orders?

Or is this just another worthy submission to the Timo hall of fame?

I'm worried that the putative S31-commandeered vessel would be more focused on finding things to make them strong.
Because surely they would have looked at their sensor scans, noted the lack of a prominent "Ask me about my weapons of mass destruction" bumper sticker and decided to move on.
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Old July 2 2013, 10:47 PM   #32
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

I'd certainly think so. The skies must be full of uninteresting derelicts, and Khan's ride would be among the sorriest. Nothing would indicate anything of worth aboard; why should Admiral Marcus' men stop and investigate?

Really? Those were Kirks orders?
Apparent from many episodes of TOS. As far as space explorers go, he's much like Doctor Who or Spaceman Spiff, having adventures for the sake of having adventures - there's no clear logic to him e.g. trying to stop one asteroid out of thousands in "Paradise Syndrome" from hitting a planet in the middle of nowhere, other than some sort of perverse curiosity to see if it can be done.

Curiosity like this would greatly benefit the UFP as long as their Starfleet can afford the time and effort spent - somewhere way down the line. It's difficult to see how it could benefit S31 in its narrower-scope quest to strengthen the defenses of the UFP, though.

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Old July 3 2013, 04:38 AM   #33
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd certainly think so. The skies must be full of uninteresting derelicts, and Khan's ride would be among the sorriest. Nothing would indicate anything of worth aboard; why should Admiral Marcus' men stop and investigate?
Because that's what Starfleet does when they find derelict ships in odd places. It's one of the things that gets them into trouble more often than anything else.

It's difficult to see how it could benefit S31 in its narrower-scope quest to strengthen the defenses of the UFP, though.
Sectopm 31 is made up of like-minded Starfleet officers who otherwise have their regular assignments like everyone else. Their exploration missions are no different than any other starship, they're just a lot more interested in results that have tactical value than other commanders might be.

Really? Those were Kirks orders?
Apparent from many episodes of TOS. As far as space explorers go, he's much like Doctor Who or Spaceman Spiff, having adventures for the sake of having adventures - there's no clear logic to him e.g. trying to stop one asteroid out of thousands in "Paradise Syndrome" from hitting a planet in the middle of nowhere, other than some sort of perverse curiosity to see if it can be done.
A month ago you were describing Kirk as "a military man who unquestioningly fights for a single philosophy and mercilessly stomps down all others." Now you think he's a "spaceman spiff, having adventures for the sake of having adventures" motivated by "perverse curiosity."

To which I am forced to ask: were you high when you posted this?
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Old July 3 2013, 10:11 AM   #34
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Hmh? You seem awfully uptight about our TOS hero and his supposed honor. Why the deadly serious attitude?

The thing about Kirk is that he is not a modern hero. He is a cluster of cliches from half a century back, relying on morals deriving from the preceding centuries. Positing morals and attitudes on this caricature is like shooting fish in a barrel, and sometimes great fun.

Sectopm 31 is made up of like-minded Starfleet officers who otherwise have their regular assignments like everyone else. Their exploration missions are no different than any other starship, they're just a lot more interested in results that have tactical value than other commanders might be.
It appears that S31 in ST:ID is a somewhat more "open" organization than in DS9, then. Fair enough. This does mean that the Starfleet of the movie isn't much different from the Starfleet of TOS, as its policies bring a starship to the same spatial backwater to meet Khan.

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Old July 3 2013, 11:53 PM   #35
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
Hmh? You seem awfully uptight about our TOS hero and his supposed honor. Why the deadly serious attitude?
I have been diagnosed with a severe allergy to bullshit. The symptoms include a disturbingly low tolerance for people who intentionally say things that are obviously false or nonsensical just to make a rhetorical point.

The thing about Kirk is that he is not a modern hero. He is a cluster of cliches from half a century back, relying on morals deriving from the preceding centuries. Positing morals and attitudes on this caricature is like shooting fish in a barrel
Unless you are prepared to posit morals and attitudes that genuinely reflect the characters as depicted, I'm going to have to request that you cut the bullshit.
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Old July 4 2013, 11:29 AM   #36
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Oh, that's trivial. Kirk is not a real person, he's a collection of people depicted by non-likeminded writers. Any and all morals are present there for that reason - 78 episodes is plenty enough for that.

As for personal ailments, I tend to find myself disgusted by people who not only mistake TOS for a progressive and liberal show, but argue that the ultraconservative values displayed therein define progressive and liberal in any context. Ridiculing the open militarism of the show is a healthy antidote to that, at least for my half of the problem.

Finally got to see the movie, BTW. And yes, it does appear as if there's a S31 agent or sympathizer aboard every Starfleet ship there, making it quite plausible that these would stumble onto Khan eventually.

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Old July 16 2013, 11:12 AM   #37
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

The shields do not steer weapons fire away from the ship, they exist solely to block weapons fire in all forms. The Vengeance has weapons that seem to have homing ability, maybe the phasers are using some kind of positive energy that is attracted to ship hulls or energy signatures. After Big V nails the Enterprise out of warp we see it blast Enteprise again but with straight phaser bolts instead of curling bolts. You have to remember that this version of Trek has absolutely no technical aspect so we're never going to know exactly why these weapons do what they do. The drone came out of the ship's side, both sides have a row of rectangular and circular hatches which can be seen on the Hot Wheels replica and briefly after the special torpedoes blow. I think the rail-gun torpedo launchers are on the belly somewhere since Marcus said aft torpedo launchers, it would make little since for them to be on the saucer if they are "aft" weapons and it showed a second one deploying adjacent to the original shot.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:33 PM   #38
Timo
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Might be a warp field diverts weapons fire where a shield does not...

As for the phrase "aft photon torpedoes", it can be taken to mean "target them with our photon torpedoes - point them aft", especially as we are dealing with a turret that can apparently turn in a wide arc.

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Old July 19 2013, 08:46 PM   #39
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)



The main "gatling" phasers that fired from around the deflector dish, doing the most damage, seem to be ordinary if much more highly powered versions of the Enterprises own pulse phaser system.
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Old July 20 2013, 06:06 PM   #40
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
Might be a warp field diverts weapons fire where a shield does not...

As for the phrase "aft photon torpedoes", it can be taken to mean "target them with our photon torpedoes - point them aft", especially as we are dealing with a turret that can apparently turn in a wide arc.

Timo Saloniemi
The Vengeance's phasers were arcing while the Enterprise sat there after Khan killed Marcus. I think they were arcing just for show.
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Old July 20 2013, 06:11 PM   #41
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

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Couple of things I noticed on seeing STID again last night. Two main reactions for local expert analysis:

- The Trick Shots -
It was hard to see at first, but I spotted it the third time around and I had to hunt down some screencanps just to be sure.



It seems the phaser blasts from the USS Vengeance do not actually travel in a straight line. Quite the contrary, they seem to curve through space in these wide twisty arcs before finding their way to the Enterprise' hull.

I'm tempted to think this might be a novel application of deflector shields, e.g. the shields literally deflect enemy weapons fire away from the ship, causing it to veer partially off target, and the shields being at low power explains why those blasts still managed to hit the ship. This is my preferred explanation because it has the fewest variables involved and, let's face it, would just be kind of a cool way to re-imagine deflectors.

The other possibility comes from the fact that the red blasts used by both Enterprise and the Vengeance in the last two movies were never verbally identified as phasers. Indeed, the one time they were actually referred to at all in STXI is when Kirk shouts "Arm photons, fire everything we've got!" It could be, therefore, that the red bolts we've been associating with phasers are, in fact, very small photonic weapons fired like cannon shells that may even have their own guidance systems. That theory would explain both their relatively slow speed (the putative "phaser" bolts are only twice as fast as the blue photon torpedoes) and would be consistent with the photon launchers on the Kelvin 30 years earlier.

- Battle pods -

Small object shaped like a giant doughnut hole is seen floating through space, firing torpedoes at the Enterprise. Battle drone does not seem to be armed with phasers, although it may or may not be equipped with two different types of torpedoes. These pods are never seen firing phasers, despite the fact that they are in locations about where phasers seem to be coming from in the warp speed attack. This, again, lends some credence to the theory that the red-colored bolts are actually some kind of small torpedo and not phasers after all.


- Trails -
Using same screencap above. We have today the first known instance of a Starfleet torpedo leaving a visible exhaust trail as it flies through space. We can't know the relationship between these weapons and the standard photon torpedo -- if there is such a thing as "standard" -- but if I had to guess, I'd say the "smoky" torpedoes are probably from Vengeance' native compliment of the modified long-range Khanpedoes.

Combined with the revelation of additional launch ports on the side of the Enterprise's hull and the enlarged size of the torpedoes themselves, I'm thinking that we might need to fundamentally reevaluate how we think about Starfleet weaponry. We've gotten comfortable with the idea that Starfleet carries exactly two types of weapons and one or two versions of each on board their ships, but in a modern navy this is far from the case; guided missile cruisers like the Kirov have not less than three different types of anti-ship missiles and two different types of SAMs. Aegis cruisers have multi-purpose missiles for engaging sea/air targets, cruise missiles, harpoon antishipping missiles and smaller more specialized point defense missiles like ESSM, in addition to slower moving water-bound torpedoes.

Abramsverse starships may have simply moved away from phasers as a primary armament, relying instead on far more powerful volleys of short-ranged torpedoes. The rationale would seem to be that while phasers have theoretically unlimited ammo, a mini-torpedo can do ten times the damage with a single shot and is less likely to miss its target. The precedent for this would be in ST09 when we saw crews loading cylinders into what appeared to be launch tubes in the torpedo room; apart from the fact that these cylinders seem much too small to be "normal" torpedo casings, they're installed in housings that are facing in opposite directions, side by side.


That, to me, suggests that the ball turrets we've been seeing on the saucer section of the Enterprise are, in fact, small photon launchers, highly directional and very fast-firing counterparts of the spatial torpedo tubes we saw on NX-01.

With six shots per turret and twelve turrets on the Enterprise, this would mean the ship is capable of launching a total of 72 small general-purpose torpedoes in a single barrage. The main torpedo launcher probably a very heavy, medium-range anti-ship weapon fed from a rotary magazine in the neck of the ship. The tubes we saw in broadside would ordinarily be used for drones, probes, mines, or assorted long-range weapons of a type we would normally call "cruise missiles."

Thoughts?
The ball turrents on the saucer are phasers and the torpedo room scene much like the shuttlebay scene is subject to extreme amounts of doubt. The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers. This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it. The warp drive system on this Enterprise thus far has not been explained in any way shape or form thus allowing the ship to jump to light speed without anyone wondering how it does that. Unlike the original which had technical schematics showing how the warp drive worked. Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function which puts the falling Enterprise scene into doubt as well. The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...m-sheet-11.jpg

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Old July 21 2013, 05:13 AM   #42
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

There's a dizzying number of things in this post you are stating as fact that you cannot possibly know for sure and are basing purely on your interpretation of second-hand fan speculation:
Killerprise wrote: View Post
The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers.
A strong possibility, but in Alan Dean Foster's novelization (which is based on the script) Scotty implies those were the modifications HE made in his own spare time (i.e. he is really angry with Kirk for forcing him to resign after all the work he's put into the Enterprise).

Killerprise wrote: View Post
This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it.
You mean it has things like removable data storage based on magnetic tape, CRT displays, Pushbutton interfaces, solid-state electronics, incandescent bulbs, Styrofoam cups?

You're right, we'd never see any of those things on the original Enterprise.

The warp drive system on this Enterprise thus far has not been explained in any way shape or form thus allowing the ship to jump to light speed without anyone wondering how it does that. Unlike the original which had technical schematics showing how the warp drive worked.
No it didn't. Hell, to this day we're not even sure where the original ship's engine room is.

Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function
Your totally baseless assertion seems to be incorrect, considering this is exactly what happened in STID.

The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.
And if this was the refit Enterprise -- and not a totally different vessel almost six times its volume -- that would be a good point.

Ironically, the image you linked to is NOT the refit Enterprise, but fanart interpretation of the aborted Phase-II Enterprise on which the TMP refit was (mostly) based. So you are not actually comparing the new ship to a totally different design it has nothing whatsoever in common with; you're comparing the new ship to a speculative interpretation of a ship that was never actually built.
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Old July 21 2013, 05:52 PM   #43
Killerprise
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
There's a dizzying number of things in this post you are stating as fact that you cannot possibly know for sure and are basing purely on your interpretation of second-hand fan speculation:
Killerprise wrote: View Post
The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers.
A strong possibility, but in Alan Dean Foster's novelization (which is based on the script) Scotty implies those were the modifications HE made in his own spare time (i.e. he is really angry with Kirk for forcing him to resign after all the work he's put into the Enterprise).

Killerprise wrote: View Post
This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it.
You mean it has things like removable data storage based on magnetic tape, CRT displays, Pushbutton interfaces, solid-state electronics, incandescent bulbs, Styrofoam cups?

You're right, we'd never see any of those things on the original Enterprise.

No it didn't. Hell, to this day we're not even sure where the original ship's engine room is.

Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function
Your totally baseless assertion seems to be incorrect, considering this is exactly what happened in STID.

The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.
And if this was the refit Enterprise -- and not a totally different vessel almost six times its volume -- that would be a good point.

Ironically, the image you linked to is NOT the refit Enterprise, but fanart interpretation of the aborted Phase-II Enterprise on which the TMP refit was (mostly) based. So you are not actually comparing the new ship to a totally different design it has nothing whatsoever in common with; you're comparing the new ship to a speculative interpretation of a ship that was never actually built.

I know more about the Enterprise than you do or ever will. It may be a fan blueprint but it's still very accurate. I can always find an official one, you'll probably have something to say about that too. The new ship is design with no technical blueprints to back up where the various locations are shown. Did it really take you several days to come up with this response?
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Old July 22 2013, 09:49 AM   #44
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Killerprise wrote: View Post
The ball turrents on the saucer are phasers and the torpedo room scene much like the shuttlebay scene is subject to extreme amounts of doubt.
Why? Because you don't like it?
The broadside launchers were soley for the special torpedoes, Scotty bitched about the retrofits to the Enterprise. Retrofits = side launchers. This new Enterprise is not remotely as advanced as the original ship. This Enterprise has a lot of 20th century technology in it. The warp drive system on this Enterprise thus far has not been explained in any way shape or form thus allowing the ship to jump to light speed without anyone wondering how it does that. Unlike the original which had technical schematics showing how the warp drive worked.
No it didn't, it wasn't until long after the series had finished when technical manuals started to appear. Warp drive was never explained in any kind of detail in he show.

And I'd like to see the 20th century version of the glass in the brig, I must have missed that.
Also the impulse engines and RCS thrusters are completely independent from the warp drive, they do not need the warp core to be online to function which puts the falling Enterprise scene into doubt as well.
You might want to re-watch "The Naked Time", where the same thing happens.
The small torpedoes shown in the picture are small because the neck of the ship is loaded with escape pods. The Refit Enterprise had a torpedo magazine built into the neck.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...m-sheet-11.jpg
This fan-made diagram carries more weight than the canon movie? LOL, okay...
I know more about the Enterprise than you do or ever will. It may be a fan blueprint but it's still very accurate. I can always find an official one, you'll probably have something to say about that too. The new ship is design with no technical blueprints to back up where the various locations are shown. Did it really take you several days to come up with this response?
Technical blueprints are non-canon. And the ones you liked to aren't even for any version of the Enterprise that appeared on-screen.

You don't need blueprints to tell you where everything on the new Enterprise is, all you need are your eyes. But hey, I'm talking to the guy who thinks the shuttlebay "doesn't count" and gigantic engineering sections would somehow fit into a hull that's only 30 meters wide...
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Old July 24 2013, 04:09 AM   #45
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Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Killerprise wrote: View Post
I can always find an official one
There IS no official one.
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